Author Topic: AI commander, Spawn Issues, tank motion and double-caps  (Read 1431 times)

Offline djinn

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Now these are prevailing issues in FH2 that I really think need special attention - Even before navmeshing new maps.
Most are of maps from 2.0, which practically all had outstanding commander AI issues. Other issues discussed are spawn issues in some maps, issues with the new bot handling of tanks, which, although it allws tanks to stop and fire, also has the issue of causing tanks to stop indefintely, camping somewhere and being lost to the main fight - Effectively killing gameplay in some maps. Also discussed is the issue of double-cap flags - Specific issues are discussed based on the maps they can be found in



Supercharge
                    Allied commnader begins telling troops to defend rear bases including uncap main-base once the allies have capped all but the last 2 or 3 flags, killing the momentum of the offensive
                    Axis commander tells troops to defend town rather than attempting a breakout once all flags but those 2 are in Allied hands
New Tank motion causes alot of German tanks to remain in the space outside the town rather than spearheading the counter-attack

Seige of Tobruk
               Allied commander from get-go tells troops to defend random bases including the uncap-main base until one of the frontline bases is in danger.
Recommend: Allied commander telling troops to attack enemy uncap to spur foward spawns and avoid early-stage idling
Some tanks remain in the area infront of the frontline bunkers rather than attacking due to tank motion

Other: Axis PzIII tank at German main base gets stuck against flag pole, needs re-navmeshing

Fall of Tobruk
                Bots don't see rear base as potential spawn after any single Allied base is capped so tanks are abondoned after initial assault.
Recommend: Some small ratio allowed to spawn from rear base throughout, irrespective of how many flags the axis have.
                 Slight change in German commander AI to attack church flag before, or simulataneously with final flag
Other: Allies don't 'see' Stuart tank to use it


El Alamein
              Some amount of silly commands from the commander, telling troops to attack axis uncap, changing and then doing it again, slowing down allied advance and sometimes grinding it to a total halt.
Tank motion helps create a perimeter of tanks but dwindles the attack force drastically - The Germans get the worst with very few tanks making it up to Kidney Ridge

Suggest: With strong main-base defenses and a mirror image of the map, commanders on both sides should tell their forces the exact same thing - Attack the outpost closest to them, attack Meteriya and kidney simultaneously and then converge of opposite outpost - Finally, attack enemy uncap to keep the main force moving up to the front. The strong main-base defenses will prevent a total route.

Other: Axis don't 'see' PzIII tank in German outpost to use it
          Vehicle pathmap change near the British outpost - Matilda 80% of time gets stuck against an AT gun.


Mersa matru
                  Worst of the maps due to commander AI. Allied commander spams radio to get bots to defend uncap until one base is under threat - And he might still give other commands instead.
                   Axis commander tells team to defend and spams radio with it once most of the baases are in axis' hands
                  ALOT of German tanks stop overlooking the town rather than going in, leaving a trickle to face allied defenses due to tank motion.
                  
Suggest: A bit tricky, since the allies do have a cap-pable German flag they can take and yet, the axis flags will cause an unnecesary slaughter if they were to take attack axis bases - Also weakens defenders strength. However, telling them attack the one axis flag will pull them away from the town...

Other: Axis PzIII gets stuck against flagpole in coastal German-uncap base. May need re-navmeshing of that area

Luttich
        Have both sides attack uncappable enemy base to cause them to fan out and create a perimeter around cap-bases and avoid narrow street fighting being the only option. The map is large with various environments which can be used for gameplay if bots would move to such areas.

Suggest:
      Changing mg42 town defenses to static vikers mgs
      Creating a cap-pable spawn flag point in the area right between the town and either main-base i.e. in the field on either side so that the battle is not restricted to those streets - In order to have open field combat and optimize tank combat.


*Outstanding double-cap issue found in Sidi-Rezegh's apartment base, beta Bardia base, Beta Alam Halfa frontline base

Extra

I recommend moving the cap-area for Sidi Rezegh's apartment base underground to prevent the collision-cap of British Tanks and entrenched Axis troops in that base causing the double-cap - Also, to give axis a defensive chance by being able to avoid a cap from tanks they can almost not stop, in place of infantry that they can - Also makes for interesting use of existing navmeshes within the bunker

Navmesh area around flakvierling on Point-du Hoc to allow bots to use the gun defensively or offensively. Prevent bots spawning atop the hill until after the player caps it i.e a very short cap time with a cap area from end to end at the top of the cliffs.

Move spawn point in Supercharge's 88 base to within the bunkers to increase the chance of bots using defensive mgs. Put spawn back at 88 as per 2.0 patch to allow bots use the defensive mg there too - Alternatively make bots able to spawn on those vehicles

Let German commander have German bots defend first three bases of Purple Heart lane and spawn at the 88 as well as the bridge

Navmesh area around second (more entrenched) 88 on Sidi-Rezegh to allow bots to use that gun also and somehow allow bots to use mg defending apartment building
Change Matildas and Valentines on Sidi Rezegh to smaller tanks to balance gameplay in SP/COOP

Change Panther in Goodwood to pale camouflage variant instead of Luttich-style darker variant whichdoesn't camouphlage with anything

Add more pathmaps in buildings used in Luttich to match the amount of pathmapped buildings in all North African maps - Also to create a 'no-escape' for humans and create some interesting combat scenarios

* Move spawn points from outside to inside buildings to give a more natural sense of spawning and increase the chance of fights taking place there - Especially buildings within flag zone, but not in cap area
« Last Edit: 11-03-2010, 16:03:55 by djinn »

Offline Raziel

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Re: AI commander, Spawn Issues, tank motion and double-caps
« Reply #1 on: 11-03-2010, 12:03:20 »
You forgot to say PLEASE Djinn  ::)

Offline djinn

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Re: AI commander, Spawn Issues, tank motion and double-caps
« Reply #2 on: 11-03-2010, 13:03:48 »
plllllllease


This is more or less just a record cuz I doubt all those commander and spawn issues are anywhere else.. or at least, not in one place

Offline cannonfodder

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Re: AI commander, Spawn Issues, tank motion and double-caps
« Reply #3 on: 12-03-2010, 07:03:41 »
...Fall of Tobruk
                Bots don't see rear base as potential spawn after any single Allied base is capped so tanks are abondoned after initial assault...
I've seen German tanks roll into town after the initial assault, but they're few and far between. And I haven't played on the German side yet, so I don't know if they're spawning at the tanks or if they're spawning in town and walking back to them.

Quote
...Other: Allies don't 'see' Stuart tank to use it...
I don't 'see' them either...do they spawn for you?

Quote
El Alamein
              ...Tank motion helps create a perimeter of tanks but dwindles the attack force drastically - The Germans get the worst with very few tanks making it up to Kidney Ridge...
Have you noticed how the German tanks park in a group not far from their main (the Brits do the same in the ditch near the first flag)?

I'm pretty sure it only affects this map, but they come to a complete standstill (they still aim) and won't move until you push the tank a certain distance, and then all of a sudden they'll take off. If you jump in their tank and switch seats, they die (suicide?)... ???

I get the impression it's a problem with the navmesh (a hole?), but the strange thing is there's nothing in the area in which it happens, no rocks/obstacles at all. Surely the El Al navmesh is a fairly basic affair (asides from the CP's/ridges), but then I'm no expert.

Another thing we need to add to winterhilf's to-do list methinks... ;)

Offline djinn

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Re: AI commander, Spawn Issues, tank motion and double-caps
« Reply #4 on: 12-03-2010, 07:03:37 »
The tank issue, I believe, is Legion's attempt to answer a request of mine (Not directly, but it does) which makes tanks not charge in hell for mettle firing as they go and without strategy. On a good day, a tank may either charge firing or may stop to fire and continue aftewards - A cross between tanks in FH1 and FH2. However, the slag is creates is tanks that forget to move after they stop to fire... hence what you see


No issue with pathmapping - None whatsoever - This is new to 2.25


The Stuart spawns for Brits once all bases but the final one is capped - Or more of less.

If Fall of Tobruk was fixed, tanks should be moving to the front in waves along infantry and for the first time, the defenders will be a fun side to play - And yet, the attackers won't have it easy either.



Offline cannonfodder

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Re: AI commander, Spawn Issues, tank motion and double-caps
« Reply #5 on: 12-03-2010, 08:03:03 »
Yeah, maybe...but I don't see why that would cause them to suicide when you jump into the driver's seat, and Legion's mods should be affecting all the maps and I've only seen it on El Al... :-\


Actually now I think about it, Mersa may suffer from it too (I've only played half a round since 2.25 because it was so screwed up by the stupid commander). I'll go and check...

Offline djinn

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Re: AI commander, Spawn Issues, tank motion and double-caps
« Reply #6 on: 12-03-2010, 09:03:56 »
Yer, I just got of Mersa - Once the bots can see really far in such maps as El Al, Mersa and Gazala, you get that issue coming in - Otherwise it works like a stroke of genius, especially if you look at Goodwood where this architecture excels. Tanks move in, seemingly in force, maneuvering around the outer perimeter with lighter ones moving in fast and hard

Sadly on a map like Mersa, this falls through because tanks can see targets out of reach of their guns and stop and wait - Same for El Al, same for Gazala - Same for Alam Halfa...

I hate to say it, but inspite of how wonderful it works in some cases, it seems to bring more issues than it solves.

Offline cannonfodder

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Re: AI commander, Spawn Issues, tank motion and double-caps
« Reply #7 on: 12-03-2010, 09:03:35 »
That'd explain why I haven't seen it elsewhere then - I only play El Al outta that bunch.

I wonder why they suicide when displaced in that situation? Must be a glitch in the AI... :-\

Offline djinn

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Re: AI commander, Spawn Issues, tank motion and double-caps
« Reply #8 on: 12-03-2010, 10:03:19 »
Personally I haven't see them do that - I know BF2 bots suicide when they are in a spot they cannot get out of eg. out of navmesh area - if you drive them there, or if they are stuck behind some obstacle and can't leap over it.

For me, they simply let me switch positions and I need to, like you said, drive a bit, before they get the hint and move on

Offline Drawde

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Re: AI commander, Spawn Issues, tank motion and double-caps
« Reply #9 on: 12-03-2010, 22:03:29 »
Definitely some useful suggestions there, hopefully the FH2 developers will be able to make use of some of them at least.

Another AI bug on El Alamein is the Universal Carrier in the British forward base which usually gets stuck in its starting "tent". The Chevy also frequently gets stuck on the same 6pdr gun as the Matilda.

Is the AI code causing the "stuck tank" issue in the map pathfinding, or in the .ai files? If the latter, it might be at least partly fixable via modding.

Offline cannonfodder

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Re: AI commander, Spawn Issues, tank motion and double-caps
« Reply #10 on: 13-03-2010, 15:03:20 »
I think it's a pathfinding issue... :-\

Offline djinn

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Re: AI commander, Spawn Issues, tank motion and double-caps
« Reply #11 on: 25-03-2010, 10:03:30 »
The UC has one of the best AIs for any vehicle considering how fugly it is and wierd it moves. I think Winterhilf needs an applause for fixing this one. And they can be quite deadly. Infantry however don't know how to deal with them

They should be able to see these as open and toss nades as well as fire rifles at them, AT gunners however slaughter these wholesale.

I'm sure double-cap is fix-able. Fall of Tobruk had a double cap at its first base when it was in beta. By the time it was released, this was completely fixed by Winterhilf so I think the maps in which it exist simply need similar solution. A map like Sidi-Rezeigh has one which might be missed since it occurs only once in a while.

The Apartment base was rarely occupied in the beta, and without navmeshes in the underground bunker, you never had German bots who were out of reach of the tanks but interfering with the flag-cap. Now that we do, the issue rears its head. El Alamein's double cap on kidney ridge has also been totally fixed! It's mostly beta maps like Bardia that still have this issue.

Offline Drawde

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Re: AI commander, Spawn Issues, tank motion and double-caps
« Reply #12 on: 25-03-2010, 21:03:59 »
Some of these issues are at least partly fixable via map script modding. But does anyone know what causes the "double cap" issue? I also saw this on Luttich (East Mortain CP) yesterday.

Offline djinn

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Re: AI commander, Spawn Issues, tank motion and double-caps
« Reply #13 on: 25-03-2010, 23:03:48 »
I can't point you to code, but I know it occurs when an attack force run into a defending force or unit within the cap radius. Once they neutralize the defender(s), the flag begins to change as normal (Consider here, the fact that the flag would have not change or change at a different speed due to the defenders, which is a scenario that is part of the issue). The flag moves almost instantly to full secure acording to the progress bar, but the flag doesn't change on map although it does ingame and the point remains a spoawn area for the defenders. The commander is also unaware of this fact, and considers it still a hostile zone to be capped.

Sometimes the flag may move to a point before it does its insta-switch, soemtimes moving as far as becoming neutral implying the effect being only triggered AFTER all defenders are dead and the flag-cap stops being interfered with...

Another way to go with this is to ask Winterhilf as he may have already come up with a solution given this was solved for maps already mentioned.