Author Topic: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25  (Read 7107 times)

Offline djinn

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #30 on: 28-01-2010, 21:01:46 »
eeek - Not exactly what I'd want FH2 bots to do

BTW, I found out today that the M10 has a problematic handling for bots. They may move it like a Sherman in open terrain, but in closed up places like lutttich, they run it into buildings and get stuck indefinitely

Quite a powerful vehicle though - The single equalizer in Luttich

Offline cannonfodder

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #31 on: 29-01-2010, 06:01:28 »
Yeah, particularly at Mortain East between the building on the north side of the street and the fence behind it.

It's mainly due to the bots refusal to pivot on the spot (in a tank) and to reverse more than a few feet at a time (and that goes for all vehicles).

Rather than back out of a tight spot, they'll try to turn around and get wedged. And quite often they'll try to cut corners around obstacles and end up going to and fro indefinitely.

Whenever I notice it, I just ram them a few times to get them unstuck. If that doesn't work (or I'm on foot) I jump in the driver's seat, move it clear for them and then give it back.

Offline djinn

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #32 on: 29-01-2010, 17:01:45 »
I'm begining to get why MPers feel we SPers are wasting our time, hoping... Here we are baby-sitting the bots :-(

I sure hope to see something new soon - I'm begining to lose faith somewhat cuz the more I play recently, the less impressed I am with bots, the more I realize I can't just jump in and have fun, I need to consider it game-testing to avoid the dissapointment


Offline cannonfodder

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #33 on: 30-01-2010, 07:01:49 »
Chin up, sunshine. I take it you haven't noticed Drawde's latest fix: http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=4251.0

And yes, the Germans on Luttich are in dire need of a full-time babysitter... ::)

Offline Tubesteak

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #34 on: 30-01-2010, 08:01:40 »
One problem I've seen is way to many AI templates.  There's no need for every vehicle to have it's own unless it's unique.  The AT guns are perfect example.  Almost each gun has it's own.

A common set for example (light tanks/heavy tanks) makes it easier to source problems and make changes.

Offline cannonfodder

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #35 on: 30-01-2010, 12:01:33 »
Getting back to this...

...A Panther kept firing AP shells at me once when I was an infantry man. I was not sure it was me or my tanks far off until it hit the Wolverine and so I shrugged it off as ta tank-tank combat... But it bothered me how low it aimed sometimes i.e as though trying to hit the closer target, me.. some of its shots hit the ground right infront of me, while my tanks were well out of sight in the rear...

Later in that game, I tried to use a zook on the Panther, and it fired an AP point-blank into me and killed me. No friendly tank was anywhere nearby...

+1...I was on foot at Mortain East (Lutt.) when the Puma got me in it's sights and fired. He was definitely shooting at me...first shot hit the ground one step in front of me and the turret followed my movements...no friendly tanks around...he got me on the third shot.

Offline djinn

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #36 on: 30-01-2010, 14:01:06 »
Well, at least they fire.. if its only scare that they actually (accidentally) use HE

Offline Zoologic

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #37 on: 31-01-2010, 17:01:18 »
They fired AP shells on me as an infantryman too, i noticed this mostly in German Panzers. Because British tanks use their MG, so i never really know what kind of shells they are using when trying to eliminate infantries.

Offline djinn

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #38 on: 01-02-2010, 19:02:01 »
Biggest perpetrator is the Puma. It sees infantry, it sees nothing else...


I had a wonderful day playing Goodwood this morning. I had just enough time to play one map before I set out for the day and I decided not to play Luttich since that fekking 76mm AT gun (I think thr American version of the 6pounder?) kept blasting anything and everything. I love that it's now mounted, but without the battle being spread out beyond the town or Mortain and the 2 other flags, and infantry bots not knowing how to deal with bots on stationary weapons, this map becomes a fragfest for the one guy that gets the AT and finally, the bots stop pouring in from the German base, save for the hapless Hanomag that runs into the LOS of the gun

I decided to go for Goodwood and was so impressed with the Germans this time around. I still can't absolutely say for fact why they keep trying to run back across the rail, but the PAK40 was a wonderful stopgap. As well as the 88s. Both 88s at Cagney were manned by Germans and kept the Brits at bay from that sector, the PAK manned near the rail crossing prevents tanks from getting across and the Germans poured over the rail in a scene reminiscent of Band of brothers' Carentan episode blasting away while they came.  Tanks went up in smoke on both sides and the Brits certainly had the upperhand till the Germans got Cagney and the battlefield became a mobile stagnation with the tow extra bases on the British side changing hands frequently and some Brits actually making it to the entrance of Cangey West, bypassing the 88s.... It really did refect what i imagine to be a Fh2 version of the classic FH1 map.... but one truer to the real battle.

All needed now is infantry that know how to handle stationary weapons and halftrack mg gunners, bots not being so tied to mobile vehicles unless they are the driver of a tank or the mg gunner, except for those on tanks, tanks firing HE and MAYBE, just maybe, howitzers playing a part on the battlefield :-)

I sure can't wait to see tanks in Totalize and maybe even Falaise pocket... but I'd much prefer a proper patch for all these little issues first.

I think I can bear to play Luttich and Goodwood a few more times, while waiting for these fixes, and a bit more while waiting for vehicle pathmaps for the Beta Normandy maps, or even other maps.

EDIT:
Big surprise! I was playing Luttich and a small force of Germans led by a walking Stuka? is that the hanomag with rockets? well, that thing came by and fired a single rocket in anger far off into the sky before summerily being blown up by a Wolverine defending the base.

I think it's similar to mortar gunners firing unending shells when an enemy is really close... I wonder if it means that they only see units when they are close by... And perhaps don't know how to aim either.



« Last Edit: 02-02-2010, 22:02:23 by djinn »

Offline djinn

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #39 on: 04-02-2010, 22:02:32 »
So here's my final conclusion on this until I find something drastically different or until something ingame changes.


Infantry
Bot infantry fire from further off, which is nice and makes them a real challenge - At 90% difficulty, they can be as tough as human players as far as reflex and accuracy - They use rifle-nades sparingly, which is tres cool.
However, they now seem almost oblivious to player commands when you are NCO. Before you could tell your squad to move to a position and they did, get in and they did, and we all were just waiting to see if they could respond to 'I need a ride'... Now they don't even ask

They use too much smoke grenades and hardly any grenades and don't know how to handle light armoured vehicles like the universal carrier. I suggest losing the smoke thing, except in rare occasions... like the rifle-nade use and letting them use nades like before i.e if you are partially or completely concealed.

For universal carriers, I think they should try to go for a shot at the driver specifically and anyone else in it and forget about using grenades. They should also try for a shot at occupants of other APCs and units using stationary weapons like mgs and AT guns. Fact is, they need to be able to SEE the person on/in it and not just the gun as one piece - And yes, again, forget the smoke - Darn thing is killing gameplay

MG gunners need to be able to see their MGs as top priority for infantry from range with prone being the best known position for use. At closer ranges (What is currently their mg-distance  ::)). Knife should be at the same range for them as everyone else.

Dashing back should be reduced in distance. They run too far back for silly reasons. Germans with the gabellte ladung should use them like the Brits use the charge. Just drop it already - Eint too hard. Currently they rely on their tanks to win against other tanks, otherwise they are screwed until 1944

LMGers are now perfect in accuracy and use. We certainly need more infantry and their accuracy is as it should be - Same for AT rifle-ers.
If miners cant drop their mines they should stop, wse prefer their use of the wrench over anything else.
Squad leaders should be seen as the least priority for selection, except when there is no condition. If there are armored vehicles, let em spawn as AT guys, if infantry, riflemen, smgers and MGers, light vehicles, smgers or MGers.

AT guns, AA and MG
I like how it is now for the most part. Bots staying on permanently, their range is excellent for all of them and once daude's fix is applied, their traverse is also good.

Bots need to stay on the vehicle and never get off save for being attacked in a way they can't retaliate, eg. AA and mgers attacked from close range without being able to return fire (AA can't use theirs close-range on infantry), then they should get off. Otherwise stay on. they need to have limited vision, only swiveling around at the sound of a vehicle or gunfire. Infantry should be able to sneak up on them.

AA should fire at infantry at long range. Infantry needs to LOVE these guns. top priority. AA and MG especially. AT should have slightly less priority to medium tanks so that if tanks exist, they go for the tanks and will only use AT guns when no tank exists, so that we can have a mobile battlefield and AT guns become the fall-back weapon when the enemy breaks though to the defense line faster than the tanks can spawn. But bots should prefer AT over walking.

AT with HE should use these on infantry (As should the hanomag with PAK35). AT without shouldn't. The guy on it should get off to defend himself and mount it once a tank is in sight i.e. he prefers it over walking in that instance. 88 falls under AA and should have similar priority i.e highest, but they need to be made slightly more accurate. Currently they are TOO inaccurate and don't pwn as much as they should. Try Sidi Rezegh and you'd understand.

AA needs to use the accuracy of FH2.2 - Currently they are too accurate. I know, I know, but its cool to be able to have a chance surviving their onslaght.. they are already permanently active, no need for pixel aiming to. Range is good though. Bots should like all mgs as much as they currently like the Mg15. From lafette mgs, to bipods, to deployed Vikers and Browning .30cal.

If a bot encounters an enemy, currently, he uses his hand weapon first - It shouldn't be so. Bots need to be able to use the best weapon for the job.

Tanks
I LOVE the range of tanks now and some tanks' ability to stand at range and fire. and they are certainly more aggressive now, perhaps due to the range they fire now.

But tanks need different code from one another according to their gun, therefore, a matlider should see itself like a light tank since its gun is of similar quality.
Once a tank encounters a heavier, first priority is to conceal itself in smoke. Then try to flee while firing - Not charge in. If it was going somewhere, then it should use infantry tactics of moving back and then trying to go its merry way, while firing at the heavier tank ofcourse. This should be more so for light tanks facing heavies. Also, tanks facing enemy tanks above their weight need to be able to switch ammo to capped-ammo and not the original ammo type.

For some reason, German tanks feel sheepish and are less likely to fire at Allied tanks. This shouldn't be so. Also, tanks that HE should use them on infantry as and when they see them, OR they should use HE only on AT infantry and engineers, leaving other infantry for their hull gunner etc. Perhaps this will cut down on the HE-fest and TK that may occur otherwise. Tanks should use either HE or mg on AT guns and second priority should be AP. For enemy mgs positions and AA, it should be HE and mg

The PZII doesn't seem to like to fire. And of all the tanks, it and the FIAT NEED to as that's their only choice to survive other tanks. These tanks should also use HE on infantry, irrespective of class, since they are very vulnerable to AT rifles at range. Tanks like the Stuart and British tanks should use thier coax mg for infantry as they currently do - AND if possible, the Stuart and M5A1 could use shot if its ever figured out how to use both coax mg and shell for the same target

For other tanks, this miracle should be applied thus, use mg at close range, HE at long range, except for AT infantry and engineers in which case, use HE exclusively

Airplanes
Almost No complaints here, planes are certainly the most aggresive things on the battlefield with good accuracy, ability to stay on the target assigned them by the commander or NCO and they fly gracefully and fire from good range.

except for fighter-bombers and the Stuka not using their bombs. The Stuka needs code more akin to the beau in order to fly alot higher over the flak and only dive to fire its mg at range and drop a bomb when on target, always for armored vehicles and sometimes for light vehicles and infantry. It should use the single large bomb for entrenched targets and the smaller ones for other targets.
It should also turn on its divehorn once it 'decides' to strafe and only put it off once its dropped its bombs or passed the target.

Rocket planes should use rockets on tanks, cannon on other vehicles and infantry and ALL planes should user mg for ranging attacks on enemy planes and cannon at closer ranges.


Artillery
With tanks firing from as far as they do, I really think bots should be able to man howitzers at least with even greater line of sight and use AP for tanks and HE for everything else. Mortar might be tricky with its elevation, but perhaps what currently exists needs to be worked on to get them aiming right and seeing further - Perhaps not as far as howitzers, but far enough.

Bots should either see these as high priority, jumping on it as soon as they see it, get their new line of sight, and fire once enemy units are in range, after which time they lose interest and bail  OR a modification needs to be made to make them heat-up or something so that bots remain on them indefinitely but would fire a number of shots and the gun would overheat and needs to cool before firing again. What to do is to make the gun heat-up slowly so that you can fire a number of shots, but cool down way slower unless its overheated at which time it cools down a bit faster. That way, the heat takes time to build, but won't go down faster than the gun overheats from continuous firing, and then cool down relatively fast so that after about 5 minutes the gunner is ready to fire again - This might be especially useful for mortar since it fires quite fast and will be serious rape if left to fire indefinitely.

Enemy bots need to see these like AT guns i.e fire on and kill bot manning them, get in close, use knife.


Outstanding issue
Bots using the 2pounder and hanomag mg34 as well the PAK35 have a repeat sound which seems to occur as a result of the bot trying to fire between shots so what you get is a firing sound in between real shots. Yes, its a bug with bots using these guns.
« Last Edit: 04-02-2010, 22:02:04 by djinn »

Offline Drawde

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #40 on: 05-02-2010, 17:02:33 »
Some very good points there - hope the FH2 developers are reading this thread!

My mini-mod (see post with download link) addresses some of issues you mention, at least partially. In particular, AI tanks are very rarely reluctant to fire at either enemy tanks or troops (if anything, they're a bit too deadly, at least with AI difficulty on 100%) and will use both shells, MGs and HE.
I've set AT guns to have a higher defensive priority than tanks, but a lower offensive priority, so bots will man them when their CP is under attack, but ignore them when they're on the offensive.

Bots still seem really reluctant to use mounted MGs, though!

Offline cannonfodder

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #41 on: 06-02-2010, 03:02:19 »
Quote
...They use too much smoke grenades and hardly any grenades...
On PDH, they use normal 'nades brilliantly...they're quite good at using them on that pesky human who hides behind rocks and in craters... ;)

Maybe the bots with the smoke 'nades are just more inclined to use them compared to bots with normal 'nades?

Whatever the reason, I like it and I don't want it to change. If I'm capping/defending a flag by myself, those smoke grenades are usually the difference between success and failure...

E.g. I'll be picking off bot after bot, then one or two will smoke me out and..."AAARGH!!! I'M BLIND!", cue the mad dash for cover...CRACK...*DEAD*... ;D

Offline djinn

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #42 on: 07-02-2010, 17:02:27 »
So I thought italians don't throw nades, right? And I saw something flying at me in Giarabub today and thought nothing of it cuz.. Italians don't throw nades, right? Right?

WRONG! Blasted thing blew me and a Universal carrier to smithereens!

Also was looking at a hapless infantryman manning a mortar piece outside the gates and thought, poor lad - Might as well put em out of 'is misery befo' 'e spends his enitire time doing absolutely nothing. Walls were high, 'chap couldn't see nothing... (Yer, I tend to role play for up to 15minutes after a round..*jk*)

Then it dawned on me... To use any gear or kit, a unit must have a range of vision, right? as well as a perspective ON the said gear or kit, yeS? SO, why don't we put the perspective of mortar pieces high up in the air for bots... in a straight line high above the gun so that they are esencially looking down on the battlefield from the spot on the map where the piece is. Would that give them a better perspective of enemy units and hence be able to hit them even if they can't directly see them from the ground?

I mean mortar is supposed to be lobed-artillery - Would kinda suck if bots need to see the target first. Was impressed with mortar on PDH earlier today too... but i realised it only worked for the americans since the piece was at a lower elevation from the pass and so Germans couldn't see americans till they were right ontop of the mortar piece but the Americans using it COULD see all the way up the tree line and use it on the nebelwerfer spawn base.

So whaddya think? Do-able?

Offline cannonfodder

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #43 on: 08-02-2010, 09:02:59 »
...Bots still seem really reluctant to use mounted MGs, though!
Hmm...generally yes, but they're not shy about using them on Aberdeen, esp. the one in the bunker at Strongpoint A.


Quote
...SO, why don't we put the perspective of mortar pieces high up in the air for bots...
You might be on to something there...just relocating the POV/camera should be an easy fix, IF it can be done.


EDIT: Actually, scratch that first comment. I just played a round on El Al., there were bots sitting on MG's around Mit. Ridge and I was shot outta the sky by a bot on the MG on top of the hill (flag on the left)... :P

The following round on Fall of Tobruk they were manning the MG's on both sides of Mussolini Piazza.

The round after that (Luttich) I saw one sitting on the MG in the main street and another one on the MG north of the main street (next to where the pushie spawns).

I'm getting the impression that the bots will happily man the MG's under certain conditions. Not sure what those conditions are though...

I would say that it's when there's enemys within range of the MG and the bot is close to it, but I've seen them jump on the MG at the first flag below the British main on Aberdeen when there's no enemys nearby. Likewise I've seen them standing right next to a MG when there's enemys within its range and they ignore it completely (which is far more common)... :-\
« Last Edit: 08-02-2010, 15:02:41 by cannonfodder »

Offline djinn

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #44 on: 08-02-2010, 15:02:36 »
Here's what I know: the bots will almost always man the mg15 being able to shoot down planes with deadly accuracy.
They rarely, but do man the mg34 stationary bipod n tripod, bt Im yet to see them use the kit.

They never use the mg42 bi or tripod position though they do use the mg42 kit at range.