Author Topic: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25  (Read 7069 times)

Offline djinn

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Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« on: 13-01-2010, 23:01:17 »
Now, I'm not sure if this will be to WinterHilf, I'm thinking LeagionX since I understand there's a division in AI from navmesh and level strategy to bot AI?

Well, this thread is mainly for people (as well as myself) to give feedback on bot AI after 2.25

So we already know the basics,

Bots are alot more agressive
Bots camp the Pak35/37, 88, AAs, Mg15, and once in a while use the mg34 tripod
Bots throw smoke
Bots use charges
Bots don't over-use greande or rfile-grenades any longer
Stuka bots strafe targets
Fighter planes are a real threat now
Tanks fire at greater range
Tanks may stand and fight rather than always charging in
The PZII uses HE against infantry
AT rifle bots are less accurate
AA bots are less accurate
Bots use alot of new vehicles or old vehicles more, such as the caro Amato

However,
1. Bots on any of the said guns, save for AA and mgs, don't swivel and will only fire if the target is right infront of them and do not, for the cannons and AA, save for the 88, use them against infantry as they should,
2. Bots toss charges once they see enemies but not near the enemy, but where ever they are, which causes alot of TKs
3. Bots don't use the MG42 tripod and I'm yet to see any prone with the bipod
4. Bots seldom, if ever, use the mg34 tripod or bipod
5. Tank bots don't use HE against infantry anymore
6. Stuka bots don't drop bombs, use the divehorn and ten to fly too low



Here are a few less obvious ones
1. bots on the hanomag mounted mg tend to cause a firing sound even when they stop firing
2. Hanomaf Rear mg don't fire.. unless this was done on purpose
3. The Churchill tank, the M10 Wolverine and British equivalent don't have AI templates for the mg
4. Bots with AT mies try to stand-deploy them and ait for a tank to drive over (the mine they never deployed) - Becoming lost to their wait rather than fighting
5. Bots don't attack infantry who sneak up on them when they are in emplacements, even if they are aware of the enemy
6. Bots don't use larger AT guns, save for the 2pdr and 6 podr mobile.
7. Bots don't choose vehicles on demand when facing enemy troops, they just pick the one closest to them
8. Bots don't use artillery, even though its clear they can 'see' targets far off and might thus be able to fire HE at some range
9. Bots don't respond to direct commands except for 'move here' nor make commo-rose style commands such as 'I need a ride'
10. A bot in an armored transport with defensive mg will not switch to the mg if attacked unless that's his default posiition
11. Bots don't recognize deployable mgs or mortar once the player has deployed them

Well, these are some I could come up with, any others might add to the log


Suggestion
Bots should use AT guns and mgs by camping them and using all possible means against the enemy. Any and every mg and AT gun should be top priority to add to defensive lines and interesting hard points as well as trade bot logic and strategy for map design strategy, which will conceal their inherent stpudity. Loved vehicles should include deployable mgs and mortar (if ever they learn to fire them)

Bots should consider the option of bailing stationary weapons if attacked by a force that they are not designed for, eg. An mg gunner and a tank by itself, an AT gunner and infantry (a chance should exist for bailing or staying on)

If a bot is attacked by an enemy, and they have options of vehicles around them, they should choose the one best suited for that enemy and try to take out the enemy instead of staying and fighting or trying to bypass it
Bots should not consider moving mobile AT guns often
Bots should be able to swivel all AT guns and lafette trpods as humans will do with the arrow keys

AT mine bots should see a tank, deploy AT mine instantly where they are (May need varaint of AT which can be deployed standing like the AT rifle that can be fired standing)

« Last Edit: 13-01-2010, 23:01:37 by djinn »

Offline Zoologic

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #1 on: 14-01-2010, 17:01:56 »
It is rather easy to suggest nice things. But even as novice as I am to AI programming and navmeshing, i still kinda grasp how it works. And it helps a lot in suggesting, and i suggest we SPers should take a look at the system. Start by opening the AI files, download the BF2 editor and FH2 modding packs, and take a brief look.

Then we might have more workable suggestion, which might be the solution as well.

This way, djinn, you won't feel that your suggestion thrown away without any acceptable explanation regarding the problem implementing it (be it 'engine limits', which is the most common scapegoat and I suspect to be a 'bullet proof' argument against nagging players).

Suggestion
Bots should use AT guns and mgs by camping them and using all possible means against the enemy. Any and every mg and AT gun should be top priority to add to defensive lines and interesting hard points as well as trade bot logic and strategy for map design strategy, which will conceal their inherent stupidity. Loved vehicles should include deployable mgs and mortar (if ever they learn to fire them)

Now, i don't know about bots camping AT & MG stationary guns like in Thomas LinXin's Omaha map. Maybe there is a "use/man" radius (where the bots detect or see through threats, and start manning stationary weapons nearby). So map design placing is crucial in this too. Since maps like Fall of Tobruk placed stationary guns at ambush spots that involves things like speculation (which makes bots might not see the target before it really appears)... it is hard to make this kind of thing really effective.

But i guess, this worth trying. I have to learn more about this though, and hear words from our AI coder, Legion.

One thing i know for sure: bots do use stationary guns (AT/MG/AAA) only when they see threats (enemy), and then abandon them when there is no more threat detected.

Kinda "instant Rambo heroic jump into big guns" to kill bigger bad guys, which PR tries to unrealistically remove in MP, gameplay-wise by prolonging their cooldown period (for the first 15-30 seconds, it won't fire). However, it doesn't affect bots.

Quote
Bots should consider the option of bailing stationary weapons if attacked by a force that they are not designed for, eg. An mg gunner and a tank by itself, an AT gunner and infantry (a chance should exist for bailing or staying on)

As one of the basic BF2 bot behavior i know, they only bail when they don't see enemy. So bailing whenever in danger, might be solved by making a condition for bot to bail out whenever the health of the object they are manning has been decreased into certain level.

Quote
If a bot is attacked by an enemy, and they have options of vehicles around them, they should choose the one best suited for that enemy and try to take out the enemy instead of staying and fighting or trying to bypass it
Bots should not consider moving mobile AT guns often
Bots should be able to swivel all AT guns and lafette tripods as humans will do with the arrow keys

Related to points before, sometimes, it is one shot-one kill (like a tank gun shot to stationary guns), so you can't really make them runaway and judge condition like human players do. Bot's vision is likely impaired and they seem to cannot differentiate enemy (only infantry/stationary/tank/planes, but not specific, so they'll keep pushing on Stuart to kill Tiger II, nor realising it is totally useless).

Quote
AT mine bots should see a tank, deploy AT mine instantly where they are (May need variant of AT which can be deployed standing like the AT rifle that can be fired standing)

Bots can "fire" when prone. You know how they use MG34 and MG42 (before) pretty well. It is the same thing "fire when prone only".

The difference is, it is handled differently as AT-mines are not 'guns'. Even some of the seemingly fine hand weapons AI template are broken, no wonder Legion says it needs "a big work"!

Offline djinn

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #2 on: 14-01-2010, 19:01:28 »
I get your meaning and i surely intend to start learning modding soon. But I suck! and it requires me to do alot of self-psyching since I'm really code-phobic

About bot intuition, I simply meant if a bot sees a tank, he should run to an AT gun, an infantryman, he runs to the mg in his area, and if all fails he throws smoke at the tank and runs away like you sometimes see them do, or open fire with whatever he's got at infantry

I'm really reading between the lines from what many of the AI-coders have said regarding bots in general and trying to see what little things can be done to make them seem more intelligent and at least make SP fulfilling. I said it another thread, but besides a crappy PC and sometimes net connection, I love SP because its very pick-up-play compared to MP and also because bots play in a more classic way which sits better with my expectation of how things should be... sure, I miss having snipers in buildings, but there you have it

Added suggestion
Bots with binocs 'firing' at tanks with them to give targets to me if I choose to use the arty guns or tubes

 


Offline cannonfodder

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #3 on: 15-01-2010, 06:01:53 »
2. Bots toss charges once they see enemies but not near the enemy, but where ever they are, which causes alot of TKs...
On Goodwood-16, they are throwing them as soon as they spawn...when all enemys are at the other end of the map.

9. Bots don't respond to direct commands except for 'move here' nor make commo-rose style commands such as 'I need a ride'
I'd say it's because any AI-related code in the commo-rose was removed when it was changed to the bar-style.

And it's the main problem with SP. Even worse now the bots are more inclined to jump into halftracks, they pile in and never get out... :(

Offline djinn

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #4 on: 15-01-2010, 10:01:29 »
I noted something from watching planes in Totalize: The flakvierling is too powerful - Actually all Aa guns are. I recall WinterHilf having made bots a tad less accurate in 2.2 which I personally welcomed. They were as accurate in shooting down planes as riflemen were in taking out other units at range.

Now they are just too accurate and it makes planes appear and get blown to bits in seconds... Coupled with bots camping, which is most welcome, it makes bots have too many AA, especially in Totalize, at their disposal with pixel-aiming capabilities - I live how far they fire, but not how dead-on accurate they are in shooting

Another thing I noted from Goodwood is that German tanks get pwned by Brit and American tanks which, for all intents and purposes should be sub-standard compared to everything including the PZIV... Here, however, they kill the Tiger with ease while the German tanks, for their part, are reluctant to fire on the enemy and only do for every 5 shots from the Allies

EDIT:
Here's another thing I've noted about bots
Riflemen now fire bolt action rifles as fast as the animation will allow them i.e. too fast for bolt-action riflemen.

Also, is too much rape if bots use the AA guns on infantry eg, the Flakvierling in Point-du-Hoc?

And the typhoon doesn't use its rockets, no the FW190 its bomb. I sat in a tank once daring them to fire on me, and they did fly straight at me but seemed not able to have the nerve to do anything else
« Last Edit: 15-01-2010, 22:01:47 by djinn »

Offline cannonfodder

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #5 on: 16-01-2010, 07:01:20 »
One thing I noticed on Totalize...I was on foot near the airfield at the German main when I realized the Flakvierling was tracking my movements, not firing, just aiming at me.

I don't know if letting them fire on infantry is a good idea, esp. considering their current level of accuracy.

Offline winterhilf

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #6 on: 16-01-2010, 10:01:34 »
Also, is too much rape if bots use the AA guns on infantry eg, the Flakvierling in Point-du-Hoc?
There isn't a clear path (back out) for bots to the flak on PdH.

Offline cannonfodder

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #7 on: 18-01-2010, 10:01:48 »
...Riflemen now fire bolt action rifles as fast as the animation will allow them i.e. too fast for bolt-action riflemen...
Yeah it makes it look like they're firing before it finishes.


The bots are fairly useless with the Bren, aren't they?

They fire off clip after clip with almost no result (other than attracting the enemy). I've noticed at the end of the round you can pick them by their K/D count...usually 5-10 kills and 30 deaths give or take.

I reckon they either need to be more accurate or have their range reduced.

I haven't checked the German MGer's yet. They seem pretty accurate though...but maybe that's just because I'm on the wrong side of the gun.

Offline djinn

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #8 on: 19-01-2010, 04:01:54 »
Personally, I feel the lowered bren aim is welcome change from its pixel aiming bots... they racked up the most kills until 2.2! and unlike German mgs, didn't require proning... you can imagine

Offline Zoologic

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #9 on: 19-01-2010, 13:01:02 »
I am very sure, it was the availability of Bren kits as spawnable class in Tunis that cause the map to be British-biased in SP.

Offline djinn

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #10 on: 20-01-2010, 04:01:22 »
Is it too much trouble to get a Downloadable tweak to get emplaced cannons rotating again as well as tanks firing HE?

Once those are in, everything else is tolerable... currently it is impossible to play SP, save for infantry-combat without it being a simple test-session


BTW, got alot of kills from bren gunners on Falaise so I'm sure its not altogether broken.. still works well for suppression too

Offline cannonfodder

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #11 on: 20-01-2010, 06:01:35 »
...Once those are in, everything else is tolerable...
Dunno about you, but I find the bots unwillingness to leave vehicles to cap flags extremely annoying. Esp. on African maps where a lot of flags have to be capped on foot (can't get to them with vehicles).

At times it effectively reduces my team by 10 because they're camped in the back of halftracks... :(

...BTW, got alot of kills from bren gunners on Falaise...
Falaise was actually where I first noticed it.

One of the first rounds I played (as a Brit) was basically one huge firefight between the Chuch and St.Lambert Sth. Towards the end of the round, the endless BLAP-BLAP-BLAP of the Brens was starting to give me a headache, so I checked the score and there it was...

At the end of the round, out of 24 bots:

10 scored 30-20 (av. K/D)
13 scored 10-30 or worse...
...and the remaining bot scored 158-0 (he was sitting on the Lewis in the church)  :P

That's pretty bad considering it's more than half the team. I'd expect that sort of score from 0.5 bots, not 1.0 bots... :-\

Granted that's the worst case scenario, due to the Bren-gunners opening fire as soon as they see the enemy's head appear over the crest of that hill (smaller target).

Offline djinn

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #12 on: 21-01-2010, 19:01:16 »
For the vehicle-camping... I'd hope it be less for mobile vehicles, especially trucks, however, for stationary vehicles I think its fine

Sure you don't have the full 32 or 24 people on your team charging the enemy, but you do get a good force, say 15 at least for 48 maps, and perhaps 24 for 64 maps.

The you get the added bonus of the enemy having static defenses, WW2-style like an mg or HE-firing AT gun that needs to be overcome. These don't last long as strafing runs and ground assaults take them out once and the bots formerly manning them will be thrown back into circulation - Basically, AI strategy thus a sum of the AI skill and static defenses i.e. the mapper's strategic plan for that map  - Think Mareth line or Gazala

Without them, however, and you need solid AI strategy to make Sp worth playing and you wont get it...Bots just can't be that strategic, them being more reactive than anything else

Offline cannonfodder

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #13 on: 22-01-2010, 08:01:09 »
Yeah I don't mind them camping on stationary guns, but atm it seems like vehicles are a higher priority than capping flags...*sigh*...Once again the need to be able to order bots around raises it's ugly head... :P

I suppose one solution is to get rid of the passenger seats entirely...e.g. remove all but the driver and gunner positions.

Offline djinn

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Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
« Reply #14 on: 22-01-2010, 09:01:40 »
That might be a tad too much work for little gain.. besides, I use those seats myself

Perhaps, what can be done is to make it that seats besides the gunner and driver position are not as 'liked' so that bots will bail them once they get to their destination or find themselves off their route and thus will prefer to walk the rest

Also, make them such that bots will bail automcatically once the driver bails or dies... OR change seats to the drivers position

Thirdly, drivers should be able to switch to gunner position i.e. for halftrucks, where driver and gunner are seperated - Especially when they encounter an enemy at their destination - It beats them sitting in and just revving the engine.

Even for stationary guns, they should be able to bail once attacked from the rear i.e say, an mg gunner is attacked and he swivels the gun as far as possible, realised he still can't face the enemy and hence, bails to use his rifle or smg etc.

I've seen these in former versions before as well as in BF2V so I'm sure its doable.