Author Topic: Why did almost only the Germans use muzzle brakes on tanks?  (Read 4045 times)

Offline 9.Pz-Div. Günther

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I can't help but noticing most German tanks have muzzle brakes and allied tanks almost never do. Barrels without them look incomplete and bald to me. But aside that the muzzle brake is supposed to fight recoil and barrel heightening, it seems like it's a very cheap and easy thing to produce, but why are they not present on most allied tanks? Is it because most of their guns were shorter barreled and didn't need any?

Offline Josh094

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Re: Why did almost only the Germans use muzzle brakes on tanks?
« Reply #1 on: 06-01-2010, 23:01:30 »
Don't know, but most of the German guns had longer barrels, that probally has something to do with it.

I mean later in the war when the Brits had longer barreled guns: Achillies, Firefly, Blackprince, Comet etc they all got muzzle brakes..


Online VonMudra

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Re: Why did almost only the Germans use muzzle brakes on tanks?
« Reply #2 on: 06-01-2010, 23:01:42 »
That's my guess, as the majority of allied tanks used low recoil, low velocity guns, with the high velocity armed tanks like the Achilles and Firefly, or the heavy projectile tanks like the ISU series and IS-2 using them.

Offline 9.Pz-Div. Günther

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Re: Why did almost only the Germans use muzzle brakes on tanks?
« Reply #3 on: 06-01-2010, 23:01:17 »
And then another thing. I mean you can expect that the enemy will build better tanks with thicker armour and bigger guns as soon as yours is encountered on the Battlefield. How hard is it to just thicken the plating, create a bigger gun and a bigger shell in advance? For exqample the US had plenty of time to prepare, why not mass produce Sherman Jumbo's with Firefly guns? Or do they like wasting money and making widows?

Offline Josh094

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Re: Why did almost only the Germans use muzzle brakes on tanks?
« Reply #4 on: 06-01-2010, 23:01:13 »
Most of the time it wasn't as simple as putting a better gun onto an existing tank, space or a new shape would often be required to make room for a larger gun, its recoil and its breech.


Offline Eat Uranium

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Re: Why did almost only the Germans use muzzle brakes on tanks?
« Reply #5 on: 06-01-2010, 23:01:58 »
You've got to think of the suspension and engine/transmission on your tank.  Add too much weight and you end up with something that becomes a mechanical nightmare to maintain and breaks often.

Offline Thorondor123

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Re: Why did almost only the Germans use muzzle brakes on tanks?
« Reply #6 on: 06-01-2010, 23:01:18 »
And an engine able to move the increased weight. Plus of course the transmission.

[See Jagdpanzer VI  ;D ]
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Offline Josh094

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Re: Why did almost only the Germans use muzzle brakes on tanks?
« Reply #7 on: 06-01-2010, 23:01:52 »
You've got to think of the suspension and engine/transmission on your tank.  Add too much weight and you end up with something that becomes a mechanical nightmare to maintain and breaks often.

See Tiger, Tiger II, JagdTiger.. etc


Online VonMudra

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Re: Why did almost only the Germans use muzzle brakes on tanks?
« Reply #8 on: 06-01-2010, 23:01:23 »
Also its tactics.  The US went in with the belief, and I'm serious, that tanks would not fight other tanks.  The sherman didn't NEED to have a good gun, or good armour, because it was never actually meant to fight against other tanks, that was the job of the tank destroyers, which were supposed to be light, fast ambush tanks with slightly better guns.  Of course, this entire tactical dogma was bullshit, but generals like Patton harped on it continuously, and thus thousands and thousands of american tankers died trying to fight german tanks.  When it was finally realized that something was wrong, it was impossible to fit good guns into the Sherman tank, which is where you hit upon Josh's post.  The british had to turn the 17lber sideways just to fit it in, along with a modified turret.  The Germans couldn't fit anything larger then the long 50mm into the Panzer 3 for same reasons, the turret ring couldn't accommodate the size turret needed.  As for armour, simply saying "ah, we'll make it thicker" isn't a fast solution.  Entire factories would have to change over, entire specifications would have to be rewritten, the added weight would have to be dealt with with new enginers, new powerplants, new track lay outs, new crew layouts, etc, etc, etc.  All in all, it was simply more economical to continue to produce a piece of crap.  Remember, the Tiger had been in research and development since before WW2, but it took until 1943 to take to the field.

Offline 9.Pz-Div. Günther

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Re: Why did almost only the Germans use muzzle brakes on tanks?
« Reply #9 on: 06-01-2010, 23:01:49 »
Well, then you just add  a bigger engine with a wider track? Bigger everything. Especially the Americans were (are) skilled in making things bigger.

Mudra thanks read your post afterwards posting mine.

That lafette thing seems to be the trend these days isn't it? Funny.. isn't that a French word? Why'd the Germans use that?
« Last Edit: 06-01-2010, 23:01:35 by Sgt.Loco »

Online VonMudra

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Re: Why did almost only the Germans use muzzle brakes on tanks?
« Reply #10 on: 06-01-2010, 23:01:14 »
Ok, so you spend 2-3 months on the drawing board, figuring out exactly what is needed, whilst fighting both the army brass, interviewing combat soldiers, their commanders, and their logistical needs.  Then you spend another 4-6 months in testing, making sure that everything is running smoothly, and making more adjustments, then bringing in a few combat vets to test it and make sure things are ok.  Then you spend another month showing it off to the army brass, who require more changes to fit what they see and nessacary for the war.  Then another couple months retesting and redesigning to their specs.  Then another couple months of production, retraining, re equipment.  And then JUST as you start shipping, the war is over.  Congratulations, that is basically what happened with the Pershing tank.

Its simply NOT as easy as you make it seem.

Offline Thorondor123

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Re: Why did almost only the Germans use muzzle brakes on tanks?
« Reply #11 on: 06-01-2010, 23:01:39 »
Well, then you just add  a bigger engine with a wider track? Bigger everything. Especially the Americans were (are) skilled in making things bigger.

It's fairly obvious, that you are not an engineer. :P
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Offline Josh094

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Re: Why did almost only the Germans use muzzle brakes on tanks?
« Reply #12 on: 06-01-2010, 23:01:56 »
Cromwell tank was designed to in 1942 to be the new threat to german armor; it didn't enter production until 1944.


Offline 9.Pz-Div. Günther

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Re: Why did almost only the Germans use muzzle brakes on tanks?
« Reply #13 on: 06-01-2010, 23:01:26 »
Ofcourse I wasn't implying that it WAS easy Mudra. Mind you. Otherwise it would obviously have been different. But I WAS wondering why, and that's all I wanted to know.

Online VonMudra

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Re: Why did almost only the Germans use muzzle brakes on tanks?
« Reply #14 on: 06-01-2010, 23:01:58 »
That lafette thing seems to be the trend these days isn't it? Funny.. isn't that a French word? Why'd the Germans use that?

Lafette is also German for tripod, thus why their MG34's tripod is the Lafette34, and the MG42 tripod is the Lafette42