Author Topic: Questions Thread  (Read 67347 times)

Offline PanzerKnacker

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #15 on: 07-01-2013, 21:01:22 »
I have a question, regarding the Augarten G-Flakturm, does anyone (Mudra? :) ) have an aerial photo of it, a blueprint, a 3D model, any technical data about it?

Actually I'll take info about any of the Berlin or Wien Flak-turrets ;D
He was not wrong. Amateurs talk tactics, pros talk logistics.

Offline hslan.Corvax

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #16 on: 07-01-2013, 22:01:57 »
What ya wanna know ? I live a few streets away from it :) Augarten is my Fav park to hang out in the summer :)

Edit : Are you looking for historic or present pictures of the G-Turm ? If present, here you go, sadly a small one. Gonna look for a better one. If historic is needed, ill dig a bit :)



Can tell you a bit about armament, how they worked, purpose and stuff if you wanna know, if you live in Vienna you cant miss them :P I even had to be door guard at the Stiftskasernen Flaktower for a few days lol.
« Last Edit: 07-01-2013, 22:01:22 by hslan.Corvax »

Offline PanzerKnacker

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #17 on: 07-01-2013, 22:01:11 »
Awesome ;D
It does look very nice, the park I mean  :)

Well, if you'd be so kind, when you find a few hours to spare, if it's not a problem, could you, please, snap a few photos of it from different sides (presuming it's assimetrical), and, if it's accessible for the general public (doesn't look like it is but here it goes), the rooftop is what I'm interested in the most, gun emplacements etc.
Still, only if it's not a problem and if you find some time, I'd be really grateful :)


Edit: Whoah you're way ahead of me :D

Both historical and present would do, even though historical would work better, yes.
Oh if you'd like to share the knowledge, yes, I'll gladly learn about all of it :D

Edit2: Well scrap the first bit, sorry, just read a few more lines, pardon my ignorance.
« Last Edit: 07-01-2013, 23:01:40 by PanzerKnacker »
He was not wrong. Amateurs talk tactics, pros talk logistics.

Offline hslan.Corvax

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #18 on: 07-01-2013, 23:01:44 »
Well, guess you know the basics but ill just start writing and if you want to know anything in particular or i left out anything, just ask :)

In Vienna you got 3 pairs or 2 towers. The G-Turm or Gefechtsturm was the Tower with the guns and the L-Turm or Leitturm with Radar and communications equipment for acquiring targets. They where separated so you would save space on the roof for more guns because of the huge radar dishes and because gun fire and vibration from the guns could lead to bad radar data.

In Vienna we had the V, VII and VIII Towers. Type V and VII where nearly identical in their looks, both the G and L Turm. Type VII was a bit higher than type V.

Type V is the ones we have in the Stiftskaserne (G-Turm) and in the nearby Èsterhazypark (L-Turm). The Stiftskaserne Tower is used an goverment emergency bunker today because its located very close to the parliament and its in the middle of a guards regiment barracks. The L-Tower is was used as platform for an astronomical observatory  after the war but was converted to a hugeass aquarium in the late 50's.


Picture from the early 50's. It still looks the same, just with some com-dishes on the top.


G-Turm and L-Turm.

As you see the G-Turm was round and had a lot of balconies called swallows-nets for smaller 20mm Flakvierlings facing key locations in the city like parks, palces or important buildings and where supposed to fight low flying aircraft, on top of it you had 4 Zwillings 12,8-Flak 40. for engageing high altitude bombers. Lower stories where storage rooms for ammo, spare gun barrels, there was a hospital in one of the lower floors and some of the floors where used as air-raid shelters too.



The L-Turm on the other hand was a rather unspectacular big box, with not very thick walls. The first few stories of the tower where also used as air-raid shelters while the upper stories where for the radar equipment, kitchens and soldiers quarters.



You can see the L-Turm is "rather" thin, only 2,5m concrete walls and 3,5m roof, while the G-Turm had 3,5m walls and nearly 5m roof in case of ammo detonation.


One of the 2 radar dishes on the L-turm.



Todays pictures of the two towers. You can google "Haus des Meeres" for the Aquarium in the L-Turm, they got some floor plans on the Website and stuff.


The Tower-Pair No. VII in the Augarten was similar to the type 5 towers, only being around 10 meters higher. That had a simple reason too. All the decks of the towers where on the same sea level, so radar data could be synched the best possible, and since the Augarten is a bit lower, they simply made the tower higher.



The Augarten G-Turm is sadly in a very bad shape. Shortly after the war kids apparently set off around 2000 flak shells which pretty much destroyed the top of the tower (and the kids) completely. Dont ask me what the shells did up there, what the kids did up there, what both together did up there, but apparently it shattered all windows in few streets radius. Its falling apart more and more since then. Also looks very miserable on the inside, i was in it before they locked it down because of falling concrete.

Looks like this today, held together only by a bunch of steel wires in the top.





And the L-Turm, similar to the other one.



The L-Turm is in good condition, but not used either. Thou they are plaining to use it as a datacenter for servers in the future. There where also plans to build a hotel on top of it but that was canceled since the Augarten is a historic park and the city wouldnt let them build stuff there. Other plan however is to build a huge open air cinema using the tower wall as a theater canvas which i totally approve of :P


Type VIII in the Arenbergpark looked different than the others, the L-Turm was a bit longer and now had 3 dishes and the G-Turms gun emplacements where separated from each other completely to avoid damage to the other guns and casualties if one would take a hit. Also the guns could be lowered and raised on their platforms to conceal them even more from fighter plane fire since the tower lacked 40mm flaks.



Not round but square for whatever reason, having more space for air raid shelter and more storage room.



Picture is not from the Vienna tower but the similar built tower in Berlin. Top looked pretty much the same, only the vienna one had smaller entrances and sloped edges.

Looks like this now :



Both bunkers locked down and unsused today. Thou you could get up to the swallows nests a few years ago too to get a view over the city, but they closed that for some reason.

Well thats what i know, but i can do some research and find you some more pictures if you are interested :)
« Last Edit: 07-01-2013, 23:01:51 by hslan.Corvax »

Offline PanzerKnacker

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #19 on: 08-01-2013, 00:01:11 »
Holy mother of armored concrete :o

3,5m walls? That's huge! I read the Soviet 203mm couldn't do anything about them and that the British only took one down, after the war, with 35 tonnes of explosives, after 2 unsuccessful tries!

The poles that stick out under the Swallow nests, are they part of ceiling reinforcement or do they serve a different purpose?
And, the windows, are they just windows or close-range weapon slits of some kind?

I see the Stiftkaserne rooftop is now completely flat, they poured some more concrete into the gun emplacements, didn't they?
(Btw, seeing as the G-Turm is now the governmental shelter, was the guard service considered a privilege or a punishment? (Even though punishment is a bit too harsh of a word for it))


He was not wrong. Amateurs talk tactics, pros talk logistics.

Offline hslan.Corvax

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #20 on: 08-01-2013, 01:01:50 »
Well it was built to resist 500kg bombs without much of a damage to the roof, so only guns would've been replaced in case of a hit. Russians bombed vienna to lower moral, but afaik there is no account that the flak towers actually shot down something. There are some stories however of wounded civilians due to falling shrapnel, which the 12,8cm shells had enough ..

And yeh, it was thought about blowing them up in vienna too, but plans where dropped becasue it needed so much explosives that the surrounding buildings wouldn't have survived that, so they just let them stand.

Slits/Windows are just windows as far as i know, they where never ment to be a close combat bunker. The beams you mean where used to build a makeshift platform in case of damages, so workes could work on the underside too and put material and machines somewhere. Was never used thou in war times since the towers where not hit.

Also it might be worth noting that the L-Towers where supposed to have 20mm flaks too, but it was decided not to put any on them because the expected low flying planes never really happened, so they where only kept on the G Towers for logistical reasons (no need to store ammo on the L towers)

Haha oh and, well it was only a few days during as part of an exercise. Everyone had to do everything for a little so you had an idea how it worked. Was probably the most fun time thou we ever had. There is a maaaassive steel door which you can only open from the inside. You have some kind of phone and a camera on the outside and a screen and phone on the inside in case someone wants to get in for some reason. Well, we where completely alone in that whole thing, where one would always have to sit by the door and watch the screen and the other one patrol the ground floor. Right next to the door you had a room with two beds, and well, since the ring from the door phone was super loud we decided to sleep all day, since noone could come in without us opening the door anyway lol. On the first day we got check on every hour or so and we where pretty pissed, but after that noone expect the replacement came, which where two pretty nice dudes too. They had two gameboys and left them there for us to play with as long as we got them new batteries if they ran out lol. So we did nothing except sleeping all day and playing gameboy. As for privilege/punishment .. well na dont think so. We had the best job there, some of the others had to stand outside the bunker, patrol the grounds there, watch for the other buildings where people where running around or do guard duty at the gates. They had it worse since they couldnt slack off without anyone noticing ^^

Oh and yeh the gun emplacements got filled up.

Also, just read the L Tower in the Arenbergpark is used by the Art Academy as a depo. Funny i never heard of that since i study there :O Maybe ill ask if i can get in there in some way.

Offline PanzerKnacker

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #21 on: 08-01-2013, 02:01:32 »
Ah I forgot to mention I was talking about the Berlin towers  :-X
Allegedly the 128s stopped the Soviets a few times, defended the Reichstag and only capitulated on April 30th (The Tiergarten G-Turm)

I'm surprised even the Brits made the effort considering the costs of blowing it up and then clearing the debris...

Ah, yeah now the beams make sense :)

I found this http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=2949 , the man says the 20mms were never even installed on the G turm since it was built in January of '45.

lol, I'm glad you had a good time, you slackers ;D

Oooh if you get in the depo you can do the "creepy old bunker" story like Beaver did in the photography thread long time ago :)

Well that would be all from me for today, thank you very much Corvax, I'll drop any further questions here, but for now, really thank you ;D
He was not wrong. Amateurs talk tactics, pros talk logistics.

Offline hslan.Corvax

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #22 on: 08-01-2013, 03:01:21 »
Weird, im pretty sure there is a 20mm shell in the showcase at the "Haus des Meeres" in the history section, even showing pictures with 20mm's overlooking the 7th district. Maybe they where removed in late '44-45 and used elsewhere, who knows.
« Last Edit: 08-01-2013, 03:01:43 by hslan.Corvax »

Offline VonMudra

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #23 on: 08-01-2013, 03:01:34 »
Was the army issue .455 Webley cartridge strong enough to kill/disable with one shot?

All bullets are strong enough to kill/disable with one shot.  The .455 was rather effective though yes.

Offline Torenico

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #24 on: 09-01-2013, 07:01:41 »
Question: How many Aircraft Carriers are operational today in the Royal Navy?



Offline Zoologic

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #25 on: 09-01-2013, 09:01:54 »
0... all of them are retired last 2010.

There is only one ship that is capable to carry aircraft in their inventory, which is HMS Illustrious (R06). But currently it doesn't carry any Sea Harriers, only helicopters for ASW, SAR, transport, and sea patrol.

Offline Lightning

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #26 on: 09-01-2013, 14:01:20 »
But if you want to reclaim las Malvinas you'll have to do it quickly, because the super modern HMS Queen Elizabeth will be ready around 2016 (and sister ship the HMS Prince of Wales around 2018).

Offline Slayer

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #27 on: 09-01-2013, 22:01:55 »
If I say Prokhorovka was the biggest tankbattle of WWII that's wrong, right? But when I call it Kursk-campaign, is it still wrong?

And Prokhorovka was won by Germans and the campaign by the Soviets, right?

(These questions are to make sure I'm not gonna teach 3rd grade wrong stuff, and since I read all those articles posted by Kelmola on Prokhorovka, I got a bit confused)


Offline PanzerKnacker

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #28 on: 09-01-2013, 22:01:44 »
If I say Prokhorovka was the biggest tankbattle of WWII that's wrong, right? But when I call it Kursk-campaign, is it still wrong?

And Prokhorovka was won by Germans and the campaign by the Soviets, right?

(These questions are to make sure I'm not gonna teach 3rd grade wrong stuff, and since I read all those articles posted by Kelmola on Prokhorovka, I got a bit confused)

I think Mudra once said the Kursk battle was the largest single tank battle ever, but the Battle of Brody was bigger but lasted longer...

posted below


That's not a infantry, that's crew members sticking out of the turret hatches.


And if you count the entire Kursk CAMPAIGN, it's still not the largest, as Brody and others still are greater than it.  Kursk was multiple battles and fronts across hundreds of kilometers of ground, it was never some singular battle.  THe syntax issue comes from the pop history version of the word "battle" and the more technical military history correct term battle, which refers to a set of skirmishes or combat that focused on a small area of land for limited objectives.  For instance, the Battle of Arnhem is a single battle, of the Market Garden Campaign.  But the battle of normandy is actually a large assortment of battles that make up the Normandy Campaign.  A more correct terminology for Kursk would be the Kursk campaign, which would include all combat along the salient plus the russian post-Prok/Ponryi Station counter offensives.
« Last Edit: 09-01-2013, 22:01:57 by PanzerKnacker »
He was not wrong. Amateurs talk tactics, pros talk logistics.

Offline Torenico

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #29 on: 09-01-2013, 23:01:18 »
But if you want to reclaim las Malvinas you'll have to do it quickly, because the super modern HMS Queen Elizabeth will be ready around 2016 (and sister ship the HMS Prince of Wales around 2018).

Hehe, that is why i asked.


Now reading Cameron's response to our claim and his "fear" of Argentine Forces invading the Islands (Might be the dumbest idea, ever) he started to militarize the area even more, now that he lacks the Carriers to "Protect" ""his land"" from a """""possible""""" invasion he sent some jets, soldiers and ships.