Operation Downfall: The Invasion of Japan

[Torenico]

From today untill the day when Japan is released by FH.. you and i could learn super uber mega uber x2 mapping or modding skills.

maybe the Devs will screw me and the next theater will be Pacific.. i hope

[Emperor Showa]

A rule of human nature: Man will not abandon laziness or behaviors that foster it unless they have to or are forced to.

*********
As this is "Alternate History", here is a thread that contains Alternate History Weapons. If you check back, you'll find Alternate History Weapons of an Alternate WW2. If there is no reply or if I get around to it, I'll link directly to the posts with them.

There's more than just Japanese/US btw.  There's also a whole lot of Nazi weapons and weapons of other powers at that thread (among other non-WW2 things). Some of these might be interesting to see and realistic enough to see in a Downfall scenario.

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=37128&page=71


EDIT: I've taken the liberty of copying a few links for a few things (Japanese/ US and not, and realistic and far out, but I'm just giving a panoramic view of it all). I'm not an expert so some of this may be from actual history.

*More in depth disclaimer: While many are plausible, many are not. Those that are not are not intended to deal with Downfall or suggestions for said scenario but to let you look that them. Likewise, anything dealing with neither Japan nor the United States armed forces, navy, and air forces are not intended as suggestions for Downfall or any scenarios stemming from it. Likewise, those things that are posted which deal with the US and Japan, and with them to any degree of plausibility are only loosely suggested and more possible things rather than forthright suggestions to anyone dealing with Downfall. To showcase these non-suggestions better, an asterisk will be placed next to them and they've been highlighted red.

Yokosuka MXY-7 Ohka Anti-ship Missile
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=2345744&postcount=1385

Arisaka Type 40 Automatic Rifle
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=2356292&postcount=1399

Atomic Blossom*
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=2332681&postcount=1356

M1A4 Thompson SMG
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=2244401&postcount=1246

AMG-44 Sniper Rifle*
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=2176188&postcount=1123

M2 Garand
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=2179399&postcount=1133

Sturmgewehr 47 (StG 47)*
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=2167755&postcount=1102

RPzB 46 "Hollenfeuer"*
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=2173509&postcount=1113

MP-45 Submachine Gun*
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=2175886&postcount=1118

Panzerkampfwagen IV 'Panther'*
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=2122545&postcount=1011

Crusader Mark I tank*
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=2124089&postcount=1020

Akagi Aircraft Carrier
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=2094621&postcount=982

Panzerkampfwagen III*
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=2114047&postcount=999

M4A5 Super Sherman
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=2093697&postcount=980

German Jets, etc.*
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=1847143&postcount=699
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=1848213&postcount=721

[Danger X]

This is starting to look like a Secret Weapons mod.

Although alternate reality might be nice too.

Difference of course is that Secret Weapons is based on actual drawings and prototypes, and, well, alternate reality is based on whatever looks nice, and is historically responsible, following the lines already set out in the war.

[Emperor Showa]

This is starting to look like a Secret Weapons mod.

Although alternate reality might be nice too.

Difference of course is that Secret Weapons is based on actual drawings and prototypes, and, well, alternate reality is based on whatever looks nice, and is historically responsible, following the lines already set out in the war.

Well it could be either depending on what is wanted by whoever may do it. It could be very conventional to everything else in the FH2 mod, outside of the setting of course; however, you must also take into account actual things that would or could have come or did come by the time of the invasion, such as Jets which would or could be there while sticking to a non secret weapons goaled thing. Or it could be an exposition for "Secret Weapons" fans. However, I would prefer the former as it does not get far out there while likewise not negating more upscale weapons of war like jets and so forth (and perhaps even helicopters though I have doubts on that) which were there or could very well have been there, and perhaps even a select few of the more wacky things to boot (like a "Ku-Go", though I am reserved on that because while I like it, it may very well be just too far out).

Make no mistake, I'm not trying to gear the idea into a secret weapons thing. I am simply presenting a panoramic, unbiased list of things that could have been there, would have been there or things which could be selectively nit picked out of a bunch of other "secret weapons" or weird weapons things if whoever does this wants to throw in that type of little spice (and I don't think most of the things I linked too are really any "Secret weapons" material since most of them appear like simply more developed forms of the conventional things and conventional in and of themselves). But I do fear it snowballing.

So I don't support or advocate "Secret weaponizing" this. But I think that all the real stuff that was going to be there would be enough, and especially enough to feed any desire for SW-type things, and should not be marginalized as "Secret weapons" since I know that's a stigmatic term and would not be accurate.

[Ts4EVER]

That forum is interesting.

[Emperor Showa]

That forum is interesting.

Its a pretty good place to feed an alternate history sweet tooth. I particularly like the DBWI's. Basically, with those, you set up an alternate history discussion like you're in that alternate universe. So you could say "What if the North Won the Civil war", and discuss it as if you were in that universe where the North lost the civil war.

[Emperor Showa]

Does anyone want me to set up an "Alternate History Maps" type thread by the way? I know a few of you have suggested maps other than this and may wish to discuss it in more length. Plus, I always found it odd that you could fight battles, win as the side that wasn't supposed to win, but never see possibilities stemming from that win. IE, Germany wins BoB, and that could lead to Sealion, or the Japanese win at Coral Sea and go on to launch an invasion of Australia (which would have been doomed to failure, but still...)

[azreal]

We played an Op. Sealion at WaW once. It was complete with British (landbased) Wildcats, V1s, Schnellboots, and other odd weapons of war. T'was a weird, yet somehow fun map.

[Torenico]

Of course i will participate if someone will take of these models.. im sure FH2 devs will look these Luft45 thingis as a "meh".


Btw Azreal.. that sig makes me go boom.. i want 2.2 nao!

[Anlushac11]

I do like alternative history but I am more interested in a "It could have happened" scenario over a alternative history timeline.

The Ohka radar guided bomb/missile is a bit of a stretch but the Japanese were developing a Type 43B Ohka that was designed to launch from a shore based launch rail and had folding wings to allow it to be hidden in caves.

The M4A5 Super Sherman is not realistic mostly because the US had introduced the M26 Pershing in March 1945 and some M26's were used on Okinawa.

The Panther is a Panzerkampfwagen V not IV. The Panzerkampfwagen IV was the Panzer IV seen in FH2 as the F1 and F2 versions. Yes Japan purchased a single Panther but IIRC it was never delivered.

In the spirit of a "It could have happened"...


Kyushu J7W1 Shiden. First flew Aug 1945.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J7W

Nakajima J9Y Kikka. Was very loosely based on the Me-262. First flew Aug 1945
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakajima_J9Y

Ki-84 Hayate. Best Japanese fighter of WW2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakajima_Ki-84

Type 4 70mm rocket launcher. Based on US M1 Bazooka's and the German Raketenpanzerbüchse 54. Was tested in 1943 and about 3300 were distributed by May 1945. Were only issued to home defense units in Southern Japan. Min range 50m, max range 800m. penetrated 80mm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_4_70_mm_AT_Rocket_Launcher



Type 98 SP AA gun. 25mm AAA gun on a truck.
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/japan/spaag-7.jpg

Type 1 Ho-Ni II 105mm tank destroyer
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/japan/type1-105mm-sph-honiII.jpg

Type 3 Chi Nu medium tank. high velocity 75mm main gun, comparable to the M4A2 Sherman. 66 made but were kept for home defence.
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/japan/type3-medium-chinu.jpg

[Emperor Showa]

I do like alternative history but I am more interested in a "It could have happened" scenario over a alternative history timeline.

That's what alternate history is; what could have happened.

[Anlushac11]

I do like alternative history but I am more interested in a "It could have happened" scenario over a alternative history timeline.

That's what alternate history is; what could have happened.

You suggested equipment for a fantasy map. I recommended stuff for a what if map.

BF1942 Secret Weapons is a what if because it lists different weapon systems that were in advanced stages of development at wars end.

Some of the FH what if maps such as Alpenfestung were loosely based on SS plans to withdraw into the foothills of the Alps and try to hold out for another six months or more.

Saying what if the Japanese had radar homing cruise missiles is not a what if because the Japanese had no such technology. At that point it becomes a fantasy because it has no basis in reality.

A Japanese Panther tank is a fantasy because A) The Japanese had no way to get the tank home past Allied Air and submarine patrols and B) The Japanese technology was NOT advanced enough to produce a vehicle as advanced as a Panther and C) Assuming the Japanese overcame all other obstacles they did not have the resources to build them.

So in the spirit of BF1942 mods and FH maps that had a basis in reality I tried to list stuff that might have seen combat had Operation Olympic occurred. 

[Danger X]

Alternate reality means that you look for a plausible what if..

Not "what if the Germans had evil clones", but what if the Germans had mass produced the Horten Ho229, for instance. If they had done that earlier (plans already existed in 1942, the first flight of an actual prototype was in march 1944), they might have had more chance of winning, due to manoeuvrability, and simple surprise. Imagina a plane without a tale and conventional hull speeding towards you at 977 km/h(factual speed).

So the "what if" should be plausible. Actually, it goes without saying, so I just wasted a perfectly good post .

Cheers,

[Emperor Showa]

You suggested equipment for a fantasy map. I recommended stuff for a what if map.

No, I suggested things that could have come about if the war lasted longer into the stages of invasion, and showed along with that the other alternate ww2 stuff I could find since I though you guys would like to see it (I even added in a disclaimer for goodness sake which basically said "A lot of this stuff is plausible; the rest is crazy crap or doesn't deal with Japan that looks cool but I don't support this in Downfall, but I'll post it so you can look at it").

BF1942 Secret Weapons is a what if because it lists different weapon systems that were in advanced stages of development at wars end.

Secret Weapons dealt with SW's which were on the drawing board but not there. As I said elsewhere in a slightly different metaphor, putting an electro tank in Moscow in 1943 is different from giving the US and Japanese certain advancements in 1946 that could have come (and in the case of jets and what have you, did come). The former is ASB. The latter is plausible development along an alternate end to the war at an further along date than the atomic bombings.

Saying what if the Japanese had radar homing cruise missiles is not a what if because the Japanese had no such technology. At that point it becomes a fantasy because it has no basis in reality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohka

Though not "radar guided", it was human guided. Likewise, radar while a stretch is not one enough to declare it fantasy and the disclaimer likewise still holds in this case.

A Japanese Panther tank is a fantasy because A) The Japanese had no way to get the tank home past Allied Air and submarine patrols and B) The Japanese technology was NOT advanced enough to produce a vehicle as advanced as a Panther and C) Assuming the Japanese overcame all other obstacles they did not have the resources to build them.

Those were German panther tanks and not intended to showcase anything to deal with Japan. Again, I just posted everything I could find as I thought many of you guys were going to be looking through that thread for them anyway, so I thought I'd be nice and just link to all of them. And I posted that there was stuff not dealing with Japan and stuff that was going to be more out there more than I and many of you like and that was because I was just posting all of them to be nice so you didn't have to look.

I've gone back and added in a beefed up disclaimer if that makes you happy.

[Emperor Showa]

I whipped up this alternate history newspaper for something unrelated to this (one of my poorer ones, but it looks better smaller sized). Perhaps it could find its way onto some future load screen somewhere.