Author Topic: Operation Downfall: The Invasion of Japan  (Read 10066 times)

Offline Emperor Showa

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Operation Downfall: The Invasion of Japan
« on: 02-04-2009, 05:04:03 »
As any good WW2 buff knows, and as anybody really knowledgeable of the Pacific war knows, before the atomic bomb was finalized as the way to go there was a planned invasion for the Japanese island which would commence. Figures of the casualties from this invasion range from tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands to millions (though I believe it only would have cost a few thousand or hundred thousand lives, perhaps comparable to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and that the millions figure is a ridiculous exaggeration.)

Anyway, I think you know where I'm going at least to a degree. For the FH2 "Fun map (s)" (Ala that one secret weapons map way back in FH1), what about doing a few battles based on Operation Downfall.

I know the Pacific is a while off, but -of concern to me now- is there any possibility in such an idea?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall

Offline Cadyshack

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Re: Operation Downfall: The Invasion of Japan
« Reply #1 on: 02-04-2009, 05:04:35 »
It'd be interesting. The best map would probably be focused on an area where the most action was predicted to occur. I'd support it.

However, this would be way, waaaaaaaaayyyyy off into the future. The "specials" will probably be the last to go out overall, or this would just be in the last of the Pacific releases. We're nowhere near even done with Normandy.

And I thought the predicted Allied casualties would at least break a million just for starters. Total might've pushed 4 big ones.

Offline Torenico

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Re: Operation Downfall: The Invasion of Japan
« Reply #2 on: 02-04-2009, 05:04:20 »
Hmm.. devs making it Op Downfall? No.

Community Making Op.Downfall.. yes.


Its an interesting operation.. but you are waaay into the future.. we dont even have Normandy and you want Op.Downfall?


Offline Ionizer

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Re: Operation Downfall: The Invasion of Japan
« Reply #3 on: 02-04-2009, 06:04:44 »
I'd personally like to see a few (at least one for every theater) "what if" battles implemented in the official releases of FH2.  We had Desert Rose and Alpenfestung in FH1, so I think we should get a "What if the African Campaign lasted a bit longer?" map, a "What if the Western Euro Campaign lasted a bit longer?" map, a "What if the Eastern Euro Campaign lasted a bit longer?" map, and a "What if the Pacific Campaign lasted a bit longer?"  Maybe even a "What if the Early Euro Campaign lasted a bit longer?" map (likely Operation Sealion coming to fruition).  I know all of these are far off into the future, if they will ever be realized at all.

It's fun to dream.  (No, Lightning, stay away from me, you dreamcrushing bastard!)
 

Offline Eat Uranium

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Re: Operation Downfall: The Invasion of Japan
« Reply #4 on: 02-04-2009, 15:04:00 »
I'd definitly make a sealion map once all the prerequisits are done.  Not one of the actual landing, but one where the Germans try to cross the east/west fortified canal where I live.  Terrains there for me to look at, bunkers are still there.  Just need hump bridges, Pz38t and early west front skins.

Offline Lightning

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Re: Operation Downfall: The Invasion of Japan
« Reply #5 on: 02-04-2009, 15:04:01 »
'What if' battles are nice, but they should always come second to real battles. Since there is a practical infinite amount of real battles, the chance of seeing fictional battles in FH2 is practically 0. (Unless policy changes, but I find that unlikely.)

Offline Emperor Showa

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Re: Operation Downfall: The Invasion of Japan
« Reply #6 on: 02-04-2009, 21:04:41 »
It'd be interesting. The best map would probably be focused on an area where the most action was predicted to occur. I'd support it.

However, this would be way, waaaaaaaaayyyyy off into the future. The "specials" will probably be the last to go out overall, or this would just be in the last of the Pacific releases. We're nowhere near even done with Normandy.

I understand it'd be off. And it would probably be a lot of action. To me, it'd be like the Pacific Normandy. Plus, you get historic and stand-out Japanese cities like Tokyo to play around in/with.

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And I thought the predicted Allied casualties would at least break a million just for starters. Total might've pushed 4 big ones.

No, those were initial estimates that were waaaaaay over the radar. The final estimates range from tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands (I would -in the hundred thousand range- say 100,000 to 200,000 min; 450,000 max or so). The initial invasion of Kyushu, for example, was finally estimated to cost 31,000 soldiers in the first 30 days (compared to Normandy's 42,000 in the first 30 days). That's a heck of a drop from a million soldiers predicted dead on the initial invasion.

Hmm.. devs making it Op Downfall? No.

Community Making Op.Downfall.. yes.
Its all good. I'd prefer it be an official part, but I'm not holding a gun to anyone's head.

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Its an interesting operation.. but you are waaay into the future.. we dont even have Normandy and you want Op.Downfall?
Only when FH2 gets to the Pacific or when everything is done. I know it'll be a while if at all, but I just wanted to discuss it.

I'd personally like to see a few (at least one for every theater) "what if" battles implemented in the official releases of FH2.  We had Desert Rose and Alpenfestung in FH1, so I think we should get a "What if the African Campaign lasted a bit longer?" map, a "What if the Western Euro Campaign lasted a bit longer?" map, a "What if the Eastern Euro Campaign lasted a bit longer?" map, and a "What if the Pacific Campaign lasted a bit longer?"  Maybe even a "What if the Early Euro Campaign lasted a bit longer?" map (likely Operation Sealion coming to fruition).  I know all of these are far off into the future, if they will ever be realized at all.

It's fun to dream.  (No, Lightning, stay away from me, you dreamcrushing bastard!)
I'd definitly make a sealion map once all the prerequisits are done.  Not one of the actual landing, but one where the Germans try to cross the east/west fortified canal where I live.  Terrains there for me to look at, bunkers are still there.  Just need hump bridges, Pz38t and early west front skins.

Sealion may be unrealistic.
http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/doku.php/pods/sealion

I'm a fan of alternate history myself. And there's a lot of possibilities (God knows how many US cities you could do that would offer an orgy of eye candy to a player), but to be a Devil's advocate, some of them may be too complex or too average to make anyone really notice (IE, a battle in a Forrest on the way to the Nazi conquest of Moscow doesn't stand out against a forrest in real history).


'What if' battles are nice, but they should always come second to real battles. Since there is a practical infinite amount of real battles, the chance of seeing fictional battles in FH2 is practically 0. (Unless policy changes, but I find that unlikely.)
I understand the secondary-ness, believe me. And I understand there are other battles. However, maps like this/these (talking about Downfall based maps, not the likewise mentioned Sealion, which you should not mention to alternate history fans because they will shoot it to pieces for how unrealistic and poorly planned it was.*) would be far more interesting than many real life battles you may not cover or only begrudgingly cover.

Plus, if you wanted to you could throw in some "secret weapons" of the Pacific war, the realism of Japan actually managing to produce any of those or produce any large numbers of them (notably, their ME262-based jets) be damned. And if you wanted to get really out there -which I have doubts you would-, you could even put Ku-Go batteries on the coast. The Ku-Go, by the way, was basically a microwave based "Death ray" to fry incoming US troops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_and_special_weapons_in_Showa_Japan
http://darksondesigns.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=weapons&action=display&thread=302


*Go to Alternatehistory.com and bring it up or click the few links on it above to test that. ;D
« Last Edit: 02-04-2009, 21:04:54 by Emperor Showa »

Offline Torenico

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Re: Operation Downfall: The Invasion of Japan
« Reply #7 on: 02-04-2009, 21:04:07 »
Ye i understand you Point Showa.


I may help when Japan comes out.. i mean i want Op.Downfall too.. its just an super interesting campaign.. meanwhile check FHSW.. it has Op.Downfall maps.

Its an "Mini mod" for FH 1942 http://fhsw.or.tp/



Offline Emperor Showa

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Re: Operation Downfall: The Invasion of Japan
« Reply #8 on: 02-04-2009, 21:04:53 »
Ye i understand you Point Showa.


I may help when Japan comes out.. i mean i want Op.Downfall too.. its just an super interesting campaign.. meanwhile check FHSW.. it has Op.Downfall maps.

Its an "Mini mod" for FH 1942 http://fhsw.or.tp/



Thanks, I lost the link for that mod ages ago and never got to downloading it. Unfortunately, Showa no longer has 1942. :'(

Offline Torenico

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Re: Operation Downfall: The Invasion of Japan
« Reply #9 on: 02-04-2009, 21:04:26 »
WEll.. you have to wait then i guess :P


If the devs are not going to make Op Downfall.. you could learn Mapping... im really interested in that Campaign.


Offline Mspfc Doc DuFresne

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Re: Operation Downfall: The Invasion of Japan
« Reply #10 on: 03-04-2009, 05:04:33 »
I would support the Ku-Go, as long as you gave it the realistic range of 20m :P

Also, F7F Tigercats ftw! 4 20mm cannon and 4 .50 cal mgs, super fast, armed with 1000lb of bombs, and a narrow profile. Fun...

And flying flapjacks. Those are just plain silliness, but they were really canceled due to the war ending, not because they were a bad design. They were extremely durable.
Twilight - the movie is just like Schindler's list... You know you're watching a crime against humanity, but it's sort of entertaining.~~Ts4EVER

Offline Emperor Showa

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Re: Operation Downfall: The Invasion of Japan
« Reply #11 on: 03-04-2009, 21:04:43 »
WEll.. you have to wait then i guess :P


If the devs are not going to make Op Downfall.. you could learn Mapping... im really interested in that Campaign.

I'm kinda too lazy and old to take up learning a whole other skill. If it happens, I'd love for it to happen, but I don't think I'd be the one to map it. All I could do is suggest stuff.

I would support the Ku-Go, as long as you gave it the realistic range of 20m :P

But that's not a good range to vaporize GI's. ;D

Quote
Also, F7F Tigercats ftw! 4 20mm cannon and 4 .50 cal mgs, super fast, armed with 1000lb of bombs, and a narrow profile. Fun...

And flying flapjacks. Those are just plain silliness, but they were really canceled due to the war ending, not because they were a bad design. They were extremely durable.

I thought the flapjacks were canceled because they shacked and wobbled like an S.O.B.?

You also have to remember that around the time of such an invasion, you could get Jets too (among other latter 40's/early 50's era weapons and devices). For example, the P-80 Shooting Star, and the Japanese had the Me 262 equivalent which I believe was called the Kikka and Karyu. And I think the Japanese were attempting to build up jets that they would hide in Mount Fuji to combat the invasion of that area or something like that.

http://j-aircraft.org/xplanes/hikoki_files/ki201.html
http://j-aircraft.org/xplanes/
« Last Edit: 03-04-2009, 22:04:23 by Emperor Showa »

Offline Anlushac11

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Re: Operation Downfall: The Invasion of Japan
« Reply #12 on: 04-04-2009, 03:04:58 »
Estimating the invasion of Kyushu would not cost more than 30,000 casualties is a bit naive.

Battle Of Iwo Jima: 21,703 Japanese casualties and 27,909 Allied casualties

Battle of Okinawa: 100,000 Japanese casualties and 50,000 Allied casualties

In two battles the Japanese suffered over 120,000 casualties and the Allies suffered over 75,000 casualties.

Thats almost 200,000 casualties from all sides in just two battles.

By August 1945 the Japanese had amassed over 900,000 men and almost 10,000 aircraft to attack the invasion fleet and landing forces for Operation Coronet.

US Army intelligence had also greatly underestimated the Japanese strengths at around 500,000 men and less than 5,000 aircraft.

Knowing the Japanese would be fighting fanatically to defend their sacred home islands and the well known Japanese willingness to fight to the death casualties in the millions is not at all unrealistic.

Keep in mind that casualties does not mean deaths. It means soldiers who are either dead or incapacitated and can no longer contribute to the battle.

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3 a: a military person lost through death, wounds, injury, sickness, internment, or capture or through being missing in action
« Last Edit: 04-04-2009, 03:04:56 by Anlushac11 »
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Offline Emperor Showa

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Re: Operation Downfall: The Invasion of Japan
« Reply #13 on: 04-04-2009, 03:04:06 »
Estimating the invasion of Kyushu would not cost more than 30,000 casualties is a bit naive.

Battle Of Iwo Jima: 21,703 Japanese casualties and 27,909 Allied casualties

Battle of Okinawa: 100,000 Japanese casualties and 50,000 Allied casualties

In two battles the Japanese suffered over 120,000 casualties and the Allies suffered over 75,000 casualties.

Thats almost 200,000 casualties from all sides in just two battles.

By August 1945 the Japanese had amassed over 900,000 men and almost 10,000 aircraft to attack the invasion fleet and landing forces for Operation Coronet.

Knowing the Japanese would be fighting fanatically to defend their sacred home islands and the well known Japanese willingness to fight to the death casualties in the millions is not at all unrealistic.

31,000 was within the first 30 days and that was an official estimate. By 1945, the Japanese were defeated. Their army and navy was destroyed, moral was abysmally low, the people just wanted the war to be over, the soldiers were poorly supplied/trained and with likewise low morale, and the Japanese military -which didn't want to surrender- was relying heavily on civilian militias (which were poorly trained and supplied, and didn't want to fight so I suspect high levels of desertion). The last hurrah's had been hurrahed out at Iwo and Okinawa. And in the mean time, the Emperor was attempting to sue for a conditional surrender where they'd give up if the Imperial dynasty was kept intact. They were even willing to have the Emperor just as an allied puppet. The Japanese were also not the suicidal yellow menace (at least by now; the civilians especially not). I mean, for God's sake, the Emperor and military feared open rebellion if the war kept up. Does that sound like people who are going to  en masse fanatically blow themselves up at every soldier that comes on the beach? It was not going to be a million(s) dead or wounded. Tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands perhaps (and official estimates at the end of the war do support that I believe), but not a million or more. And couple that with the additional possibility of a Japanese rebellion against the military regime during that time and you could see US casualties and the cost of invasion cut further.
« Last Edit: 04-04-2009, 03:04:58 by Emperor Showa »

Offline Torenico

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Re: Operation Downfall: The Invasion of Japan
« Reply #14 on: 04-04-2009, 03:04:00 »
But knowing the Japanese spirit... soldier will go in an All or Nothing.. a charge whit Katanas or MG's.


Nobody here can say the truth.. because it never happend. You cannot say that the Germans won the Operation Seelowe.. because it never Happend..


Of course.. if Japan dindt surreder after the 2 Nuclear Bombs.. i heard the US High command would have to use a Super Heavy Bombardment from the Best USN Guns.. even that dindt destroyed the Iwo Jima defenders.. in Japan.. they would have to use Nuclear Weapons to destroy the US forces.


And tell me something.. what if Japan won? What if the US Losses will be 50.000? Will Japan start a new invasion of the Pacific? No.. why fighting when you can surrender.

Same point in Berlin.. if Germans won that battle.. they wouldnt be able to retake all the Territory lost in hand of the Soviets.. and Americans will strike Again.

If US Launched an Invasion in S. Japan.. im sure that the USSR would launch their own in N. Japan.