Poll

Should enemy transport icons display on mini-map?

Yes, I´ll explain why on the comments below.
10 (66.7%)
No, it frustrates sneaky attacks.
5 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 15

Author Topic: Transports showing in mini-map  (Read 1291 times)

Offline Slayer

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #15 on: 21-08-2018, 14:08:25 »
I kindly disagree with you on the teamwork thing :)

Just yesterday we played Villers Bocage and ToreSlinning was destroying axis Panzers left and right in his Achilles. When I typed a little compliment, he replied "couldn't have done it without my squad". I wasn't in his squad, but I saw red tanks flash on the minimap from time to time, so I assume he had spotters in his squad who told him where the Panthers, Tigers and Panzer IVs were. Since he lived for so long, he must have had repairmen to keep him alive for so long too. That is just one example, from a casual night of gaming.

Of course, in other squads the teamwork might not be as smooth, let alone the guys who aren't even in squads, but I think the amount of teamwork is OK, and often underestimated.

@HUD elements: what do you mean by "all other elements gone"? I still see my ammocount and the "health" of my vehicle/static weapon, so I don't know for sure what you mean by "all gone".

Offline Redbadd

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #16 on: 23-08-2018, 01:08:16 »
Im ok with them showing up, you can use it as a diversion or an invitation to come on over. You can drive it into a river etc or stay in the backseat.

Sneaking is what makes most maps playable.

Imagin Villers be a push sector what ever you call it map, it would be a horrible bore grind fest like most of the new maps. Backcapping is shit but it would make ogledow more fun, get things moving instead of running into a brick (lead) wall.
Ary spamming, heavy tank spamming, maybe planes with higher accuracy then comtempory airforces and instant reload. I dont care to try to cap a flag with a couple 122 spots on it.
Blind spotting and a couple of guys repairing on the back of a tank and a guy sniping with a 105mm, thats just as gamy as rushing in with a kuebel a couple of times until it works.




Offline Slayer

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #17 on: 23-08-2018, 17:08:59 »
Sneaking is what makes most maps playable.
Wow, that is certainly a pessimistic view on the gameplay of the mod.

Agreed that there are many gamey things in FH2, but that doesn't mean that all gamey things are good/should be allowed in or added to the mod.

Offline GeoPat

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #18 on: 25-08-2018, 14:08:47 »
They've been experimenting with making empty vehicle icons invisible in the tournament.  It is possible to do without teamlocking everything.

Incidentally, sneaking in with vehicles is the essence of tournament play.  Given the popularity of the tournament, I'd say many people prefer that gameplay style.

Offline Slayer

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #19 on: 25-08-2018, 14:08:29 »
Incidentally, sneaking in with vehicles is the essence of tournament play.  Given the popularity of the tournament, I'd say many people prefer that gameplay style.
You know this "conclusion" is borked, right?

Also, the essence of tournament play was teamwork, right? At least, that's what I've been hearing all these years.

If you want sneaky gameplay, there are games designed for that, like those James Bond games.

Offline GeoPat

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #20 on: 25-08-2018, 16:08:19 »
If you want sneaky gameplay, there are games designed for that, like those James Bond games.

We don't need other games.  This one is perfect for sneaking around on big conquest maps.  It makes use of the best that the BF2 engine offers.  It allows high ping, average skilled players the opportunity to outsmart their foe.

IMO, many of the stock maps actually keep the action where the engine is buggiest, lot's of people at close quarters.  It turns a great game into lag and frag, spawn die spawn die.  In general it favors low pingers with good shooter skills.  It's basically a field day for young Germans, atm.

As for the tournament, it takes a lot of team work to pull off a good sneak attack.  There is nothing quite like attacking a flag simultaneously from different directions and wiping out the defenders.  There is also nothing quite as great as using a sneak attack on a back flag to flip the tables on an enemy team that thought it was winning.  That's how we can play the same map for 6-7 rounds and each round feels completely different.

As for other games, I'm pretty sure almost every WW2 FPS game out there does what some of the stock maps are trying to do which is script the gameplay.

Offline Flippy Warbear

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #21 on: 25-08-2018, 16:08:57 »
Is EOD2 really popular in the tournament scene, GeoPat?

Offline Nerdsturm

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #22 on: 25-08-2018, 18:08:06 »
IMO, many of the stock maps actually keep the action where the engine is buggiest, lot's of people at close quarters.  It turns a great game into lag and frag, spawn die spawn die.  In general it favors low pingers with good shooter skills.  It's basically a field day for young Germans, atm.

Frankly, this is what most people want from the game. Players want action, and don't care enough about winning the map to wait around defending flags that rarely, if ever, get attacked. IMO this is why most of the CMP maps play poorly on the public servers - I mean you can sneak attack the rear flags on Westwall but even on a 100 player server the probability that there will be any defenders there is low.

But I think transports should stay visible just because they're usable transports and players may need them. Teamlocking transports would be okay though, as it's easy to teamkill players in enemy jeeps since they're so fast that you have little time to check the minimap.

Offline GeoPat

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #23 on: 25-08-2018, 18:08:04 »
That is a good point Nerdstrum.  Luckily the tournament is still strong going for those who like its gameplay.  I'm working on a stripped down version of Westwall for the next CMP release.  Fewer flags more tanks.

@Flippy.  Unfortunately EOD2 is dead.  I don't think most people have even heard of it.  Maybe we will get an event or mini-campaign going, like we have with BF Pirates2.  I would like to try it out with multiplayer.

Offline Flippy Warbear

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #24 on: 25-08-2018, 19:08:45 »
@Flippy.  Unfortunately EOD2 is dead.  I don't think most people have even heard of it.  Maybe we will get an event or mini-campaign going, like we have with BF Pirates2.  I would like to try it out with multiplayer.

You'd think EOD2 was doing great in the tournament world if sneaking is the way to play in them.

Offline GeoPat

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #25 on: 25-08-2018, 19:08:02 »
Oh, I see where this is going.  We should just revive some thread of an argument that will never end.  For the record there is no "tournament world" that I know of.  The people that I have played with the past 6 years in two different tournaments just want to play their preferred version of FH2.  All other games tried have gotten a lot less participation.  Only FH1 and FHSW campaigns even come close. 

It's never really been about the tournament, most participants are completely inactive in the forums and don't attend training.  It's not ever about teamwork and roleplaying.  You have to yell at people to communicate.  Every Friday a bunch of people want to play a game that they love in style they prefer.  Just like some FH2 fans only play SP other FH2 fans prefer the tournament maps.  That's just how it is.

If you were serious about EOD2, I don't think it ever got finished enough to take off. 

Offline Slayer

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #26 on: 25-08-2018, 21:08:30 »
We don't need other games.  This one is perfect for sneaking around on big conquest maps.  It makes use of the best that the BF2 engine offers. It allows high ping, average skilled players the opportunity to outsmart their foe.
Actually, what you describe, is that FH2 should have never been made on the BF2 engine. And yes, the whole sneaking thing suits BF2 A LOT better than FH2, since World War 2 big battles were usually more about clashes of armies than about small parties sneaking in somewhere. Maybe FH2 would have been better on a different engine. But it is as it is.

Offline Korsakov829

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #27 on: 29-08-2018, 18:08:59 »
It's a problem but I don't think that there's a middle ground solution to it, even in the latest Battlefield games empty vehicles still appear on the map.

In BF1942, BF2, all the time I remember checking the map to see what vehicles were open for taking in the enemy's spawn and whatever was missing would tell you what the enemy was fielding and what you had to prepare to counter or evade. Any time a flag is captured and vehicles spawn you check to see if anything disappears to get an idea of how fast they're moving. It's not a big deal when you have a server of 50+ people since it's much harder to keep track of but even then you can at least pay attention to what is only a few meters away from you, so you'd have a few seconds of warning if you had an attack coming from a vehicle. And that's why I always drowned my jeeps in a lake or something if possible, or went the longest way possible on foot. In the tournaments, it didn't happen that often but it was a tactic to have one person remain inside the vehicle for several seconds after everyone gets out, or to drive it elsewhere.

In my opinion the map shouldn't even be visible and only accessible after a considerable delay and even then should never relay the position of any person or vehicle, not even yourself. That's the extreme option, I like it because it makes everyone a bit more cautious about their surroundings and needs an even more heightened awareness as to what is going on, be it sounds or flocks of birds. Of the latter I don't remember if that's still in FH2 but honestly it should be removed, but that's a topic for another time.

The alternative to that is adjust the range that empty vehicles begin to appear on the map to something really short. I have no idea how that is achieved and if it's possible to do without changing the range for every single thing.

Offline Pavel_[RUS74]

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #28 on: 16-06-2019, 22:06:37 »
What's the situation with the plane?
Just, I already poorly remember - if on "scout" to fly on edge of the card, and to land near a point, then the left plane too will be displayed, as well as the car?

Displaying an empty car is a normal phenomenon, it was also in "BF:1942" and it's good that it was.
So, for example, until now on servers original "1942" can be watch such a situation, when any player tries to along in rear or flank the other team, to start with impunity kill the infantry (sniper) or muddle the planes on takeoff (with APC gun).
Such cunning on servers, as a rule, at once expose on public display (especially when it attacks uncap mainbase), or (if rules in principle are not broken) such saboteur just also can be neutralized only thanks to visibility of the machine.

Is that good or bad?..
It seems to me, any adequate player who let even plays the first month, will think up or dump the car somewhere at the end of a way, and further to reach the attacking position on foot, or quickly to destroy it in the available way.
The same applies to the capture of points - if a group of saboteurs is put forward on the flank to the available position to capture the enemy, they should understand that just fly to the position on a fast car:
1) some noob or arcade style, that does not correspond to this pseudo-realistic mod;
2) in principle is unlikely to have effectiveness, because in such cases it is necessary to operate a group (squad), together with the consciousness of the case, and as quietly and patiently, then is there anyway to leave the car/plane somewhere to the side so as secretly as possible to go/to crawl up to the position.

If you carry out a quick attack, in any case (that in the presence of a marker machine that without it) the enemy will know about it, and in any case, the probability of a successful assault is not more than 50%.

And the main advantage of this mod (as well as PR) is more realistic and reliable than in the original arcade game.
On servers BF:1942 can be a jeep fly over the edge of the map, if you hold down the desired key, but the game is not adding more fun.  ;)

Spoiler
About the fact that SL at random game often remains the role of "walking respawn", and a large part of the players treacherously runs from one SL to another: on the one hand, I want to agree with the Nighthawk on this occasion, in half of the cases it happens, but it is a drawback of BF2 as such, which will remain in mods, and which at random game for fun is not something bad (more precisely, is bad when some players and the commander are ready to work as a single team, acting systematically and authentically as and in real life, and part of - at all even remain "unsigned", outside squads). But, on the other hand, in the short time that I managed to play, there were also cases when I - being SL - acted only for the success of the whole team, and acted tactically, as it was necessary, but all the players who clung to the squad, used it only as a springboard for their tasks, and the squad was filled completely, and such cases when I opened the squad just to have a machine gun and smoke grenades, and I was connected 2-3 players who were always nearby. often asked about our further actions in the course of the game, consulted, went into battle and covered, and in moments of calm - just talked on other topics, for which the german and american comrades, i am grateful, because in the end our little party was often able to provide significant support for the whole team when 2-3 fighter could restrain the flank that the enemy had assumed that the players position is actually more, and went to attack the other flank, which was still more than 50% of the team.  ;D

The same applies to teamwork - yes, it often happens that you can constantly ask for artillery or aircraft aiming at the target (being an artillery or a pilot), but for the entire first half of the game and did not get anything, although the scouts and SL in the team there, at least 5 people.
But, at the same time, on some maps it makes no sense to land the plane, as near the take-off field just will not be a random player who could assist you in repairing the aircraft (when the airfield only replenishes ammunition, but does not treat the car), even another pilot, waiting in turn, and on other maps opposite - you can sit down, make a u-turn for future takeoff, and if some noob or bastard does not fly to uncap mainbase to shoot based plane, then for the time until you make a u-turn, some player can figure out to take the kit engineer, and repair the plane just running past.
Also, if you are sensible and attentive guys in the team are (and they are) it is quite the contrary - you want to drive a tank or be a scout, but another scout is signaled the presence of enemy aircraft and/or provides route guidance for artillery and you have to run on AA or arty that the work of this man was not in vain.
Well once altogether an interesting case was - i had just started to play on servers, and just recently mastered the artillery. The map was "Purple Heart Lane", and for the USA force i took a mortar to support the team, because at that time the map was new to me, the computer capabilities I have are not so strong that you can participate well in the shootings in the bushes, so I supported both smoke and fragmentation shells. The outcome of the battle was that:
1) due to well-specified targets, I was able to suppress large amounts of enemy infantry and even machine-gun nests and artillery, thanks to the mini-map I could focus on the movement of their teammates, making the number of FF was low;
2) we won, and when on the next map I offered to participate in the support of the team through the management of a tank or a car, or as a commander, many replied: "No, stay on the artillery, it's better!".  :D

But the presence of "wrong spot" is a significant disadvantage, i agree.
For example, through binoculars the enemy tank is clearly visible, in front of him there is nothing but a fence or a tree branch, but it is still not displayed, although another tank, from which only the barrel of the gun can look out from behind the barn, for some reason is determined without problems.
Or the situation when you're 5 minutes all indicate the presence of Ferdinand, writing in the chat, but neither the bomber nor the AT-players, no one is trying to knock out those ways, but all try on the T-34 to come visit him in the ass, and shoot all the ammunition, then to understand, so it does not destroy the settings of the mod.  ::)

Spoiler
About the sound - I agree with Korsakov.
Indeed, it seems FH2 is my first game in which to determine the specific opponent and situation it is not necessary to increase the volume to maximum (generally better not to do, because it is stupid and unfair action) and just listen to the type of sound (the shot of a rifle or gun) and its location.

Similarly, about the elimination of the vehicle and walking - this is the only possible options for a series of BF, and this functionality of the game retains a certain balance.

The positive quality of mod is its realism and authenticity (or rather, an attempt to be so).
Therefore, front-line battles are normal, and generally rare in games. Some serious push-element I can only remember in "Enemy Territory: Quake Wars", where teamwork and generality of action was implemented through specific push-events, and it was really interesting.
« Last Edit: 16-06-2019, 22:06:37 by Pavel_[RUS74] »

Offline Pavel_[RUS74]

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #29 on: 16-06-2019, 22:06:39 »
del
« Last Edit: 16-06-2019, 22:06:39 by Pavel_[RUS74] »