Poll

Should enemy transport icons display on mini-map?

Yes, I´ll explain why on the comments below.
9 (64.3%)
No, it frustrates sneaky attacks.
5 (35.7%)

Total Members Voted: 14

Author Topic: Transports showing in mini-map  (Read 1065 times)

Offline blander

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Transports showing in mini-map
« on: 18-08-2018, 21:08:55 »
Using a transport vehicle like a truck or a jeep and parking it close to an enemy position is a worthless strategy because the vehicle will appear in the enemy´s mini-map and thus the attack becomes visible, the surprise element is lost.

Offline Matthew_Baker

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #1 on: 18-08-2018, 22:08:54 »
It's fine to show it on the minimap, 'cause rushing behind enemy lines with a 4 ton truck and pooping out squad mates is a dumb tactic imo. :-\ It's not realistic in any way and from a gameplay standpoint I'd much rather fight for a flag then have it taken from behind me without contest because someone wasn't paying attention.

I think having it show up on the minimap is an unintended consequence of the fact that it's not team locked. So tbh I don't think it's something that's even been looked into by anyone. I also don't know if it's possible to do without stopping it from showing up on the minimap entirely or team locking it.

Having it show up, coupled with blinking circles and the fact that there's a minimap in the first place, allow the average player to have more situational awareness that is necessary in a 'gamey' shooter like FH2 imo

Offline |7th|Nighthawk

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #2 on: 19-08-2018, 09:08:07 »
I don't think it's a dumb tactic if you can use the element of surprise to your advantage. Rushing into static defense is a dumb tactic though and more often than not the only choice on Sector Push. As you have said yourself, the game is quite 'gamey' and the troll tactics, at least in my opinion, make it more fun. I miss the big conquest maps. Sure, it was annoying when some random Schwimmwagen managed to cap back a flag on Operation Cobra, but it made the map way more enjoyable even for a losing team and let's face it: Teams get stacked quite regularly so that one sided constantly loses. Most Conquest maps are Sector Push now, Kübelschrecking and Bazookajeeps have been removed, the Calliope Jeep has been castrated, the Wasp takes incredible amounts of damage by just driving to the front and the rocket launchers are iffy as hell so I'd definitely argue for a change that enables goofy tactics. There's nothing remotely immersive in FH2 except for the art work that you would have to preserve by making those tactics useless.

I agree though, it's just the vBF2 way of showing empty vehicles that are not team locked. Making them completely invisible on the map would probably lead to some frustration as well.
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Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #3 on: 19-08-2018, 09:08:45 »
Quote
Most Conquest maps are Sector Push now,

What? In what world? We actually released a new conquest map last patch and 2 in the patch before that...

Offline |7th|Nighthawk

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #4 on: 19-08-2018, 11:08:50 »
I'm talking about the old ones you turned into sector push - like Cobra. I appreciate the idea of more people on one flag but I don't like the result.
One map on which it works particularly well though is Hurtgen.
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Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #5 on: 19-08-2018, 12:08:04 »
And that means "Most" of them are now sector push? I don't think you know the definition of "Most".

Offline |7th|Nighthawk

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #6 on: 19-08-2018, 12:08:07 »
No need to get cranky. I don't care for the Africa maps and at one point a lot of maps got blessed with that game mode, including Falaise Pocket, after which my enjoyment for this mod dropped a little. I'll be more precise: Most of the maps I enjoyed got a change for the worse -> in my opinion <-. I'm probably alone with this opinion as many people still enjoy your mod just as much as on day one so it's completely fine to keep it that way.
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Offline Slayer

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #7 on: 19-08-2018, 16:08:24 »
I don't care for the Africa maps
To each his own of course, but to discard a large part of the mod, without which we wouldnt even have this discussion right now, and then use it as an argument on gameplay is really wrong imo.

I agree with Matt, sneaky tactics are not for this game. I agree that rushing into static defenses is not the best tactic, but taking flags with the use of smoke, artillery, tank support and infantry skills, ie combined arms with a bit of teamwork actually is the core of the game.

Therefore it is imo totally fine that a jeep becomes visible on the map. If you don't want that to happen, leave at least one teammate inside it: problem solved.

Offline jan_kurator

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #8 on: 19-08-2018, 17:08:26 »
Using a transport vehicle like a truck or a jeep and parking it close to an enemy position is a worthless strategy because it is simply stupid to begin with. On the other hand, I think that all vehicles but bicycles and ciivilian cars/trucks should be teamlocked, what would result in them being hidden on the minimap. I don't like how easy it is to drive enemy's vehicles, but I understand technical reasons behind it. We now have new flashing markers to indicate when precappers "sneaky attackers" are on a flag, so I wouldn't mind vehicles not being shown. Unfortunately, it is not possible to implement without teamlocking all vehicles or making them invisible for both sides.

Offline |7th|Nighthawk

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #9 on: 20-08-2018, 08:08:24 »
I'm fully aware that without the Africa maps, this mod would not be where it is at but I find most of the maps to be an unenjoyable grind fest, especially on a full server. As I've said, I'm in the minority on this one and I should clarify that the mini map icon definitely is not game breaking for me, otherwise I would not occasionally come back to play a few games.

Yes, a nicely timed combined attack is something I've seen maybe once or twice in over five years of playing this mod (mind you, not as regularly as most of the players here). In contrast to a mod like PR, there's almost no incentive to work as a team except for driving a vehicle as bow gunner or spotting for artillery. The Squad Leader serves no other function than to be a mobile spawn, a role I regularly take because I'm not a super active player to begin with so sitting back and sniping off enemies fits this style. That or sitting in a bush without moving to create a flanking spawn. The fact that first aid and ammo kits plus revive function for infantry were taken out of the mod for understandable reasons (unstoppable zombie squads) just reinforces that. The SL is just a spawn point from which the squad mates just rush to the next flag without coordination, die, respawn, rinse and repeat. The moment someone has made it past the defenses, everyone leaves your squad to spawn on the sneaky new squad leader anyway. The fact that there are a handful of "real" squad leaders that manage to create a dynamic by using VOIP and being fun in general does not change the overall feeling for me. Not that FH should take the vBF2 mechanics but those managed to make random people cooperate okay to win a match even if noone used VOIP.
That last guy who remains in the vehicle doing nothing at all would be the SL then since if he dies, he stops serving any purpose ;D

TL;DR: I don't think the teamwork Slayer mentioned is often in effect on a public server with randoms.

Sounds like a good idea that would also greatly reduce the amount of teamkilling. Locking civilian cars seem odd though. How would you "balance" them between the teams then? Oh, so you can see when a flag is contested?
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Offline jan_kurator

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #10 on: 20-08-2018, 12:08:15 »
^
civilian cars/trucks and bicycles should be the only unlocked vehicles IMO

Offline Slayer

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #11 on: 20-08-2018, 14:08:28 »
Spotting for artillery (and moving in after the blast) is teamwork already and it is an everyday event.  :)

Also, with a community like this, you can hardly talk of "randoms", most of the players know each other.

Offline LuckyOne

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #12 on: 20-08-2018, 17:08:00 »
I don't really mind it showing currently, like everyone said if you want it to stay invisible leave somebody in it.

However maybe some vehicles should stay hidden / be teamlocked. In FHSW the towed AT guns are invisible, and also the "commando" vehicles that were historically used for sneaky tactics...

Maybe only the SAS Jeep / Schwimmwagen should be locked and "sneaky" ?

All in all the vehicle flag rushing is in my opinion just a symptom of a far greater problem. The truth is, most transport vehicles are useless in this mod. The fast ones can be used for flag rushing, the APCs mostly sit in main even if they have some firepower because they are easy targets and provide little other perks. The trucks are only ever useful on Africa maps where distances are larger.

In BF 1942 at least some APCs could lay mines, others spawned a heavy MG on a tripod. The trucks could deploy ammo boxes to bring ammo for the infantry where it was scarce...I wonder why the current incarnation of FH abandoned all these perks that made support vehicles fun...
This sentence is intentionally left unfinished...

Offline Slayer

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #13 on: 20-08-2018, 19:08:48 »
APCs still reload ammo, you just have to sit next to it for a while.

Offline |7th|Nighthawk

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Re: Transports showing in mini-map
« Reply #14 on: 21-08-2018, 10:08:11 »
@jan_kurator: Sorry, I missed the "but". Thanks for clarifying.

@Slayer: Yes, the artillery is teamwork for sure but I feel that, despite or maybe because the veteran player base, there are a lot of (very good) lone wolfs that mop the floor with the irregulars or newcomers and most teamplay feels unrewarding. The only rewarding moment for the Squad Leader is to be the best squad, usually with the SL having half of the points of the best guy in the squad since he has to be careful. Since the full sized rifles are 1hk and a soldier has more than enough ammo on him, ammo that you can only replenish by finding boxes or trucks, there's really no need to work in a squad except for an extra spawn point or "fast cap" reinforcements. You cannot be revived, you cannot be rearmed and rarely will you find a guy that will repair your tank. The best players at the end of the round are usually the ones who know how to handle a tank or a plane (I vividly remember FH|Fairplayer in his Typhoon on Totalize or the King Tiger drivers on Eppelsdorf), stuff that you don't need much teamplay to be good with.

@LuckyOne: Yes, especially when you use them as intended with a full squad and you get caught by an AT rifle or gun, you just lost a bunch of tickets and propelled the lucky killer on first place :P

What about removing the mini map entirely and only leaving the "big" map? I take it that it would result in massive team killing or why is it still here with all the other HUD elements gone?
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