Author Topic: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop  (Read 1551 times)

Offline MaxP

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I'm still very much interested in this. In case you think I don't believe you: I do, but I'm curious where you got the numbers from.
From my own experience, of course.
« Last Edit: 10-05-2018, 13:05:52 by MaxP »

Offline Slayer

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I'm still very much interested in this. In case you think I don't believe you: I do, but I'm curious where you got the numbers from.
From my own experience, of course.
OK, could you please explain how your experience can tell you that there are at least ~2000 SP players out there? PM me pls if it's NSFW.

Offline MaxP

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that there are at least ~2000 SP players out there?
Where? At forum? At servers? At home?
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Most Online Today: 23. Most Online Ever: 358 (18-04-2011, 04:04:36)

Or you mean - totally? For about several percents go online.
All of remaining playing SP. They called the sp players.

Man, I'm playing games from 1996. I have a huge online experience, I have a huge sp experience.
I see many of game communities. I see all of these people, and I speak with them.

What do you want to say? That my experience is irregular? Obviously, it is not, 'cause I have no bias toward sp or mp only.
« Last Edit: 11-05-2018, 05:05:20 by MaxP »

Offline Matthew_Baker

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I think he's wondering (and I am too) about how you came to that number. Most of us 'Multiplayer-only' players only ever see about 100 people online at any given time. If I had to guess, from my experience looking at the server browser, I'd say there's only about 100-150 players that currently own this game and play it regularly (multiplayer)

We obviously don't see any of the single player people since there's nothing keeping track of the people playing SP currently. So I'm wondering how you came to that number. Is there a forum with 2000ish members that only discuss SP stuff? or a discord? Youtube videos?

It'd be helpful for the devs to get an idea of who's playing the game. If the SP community is really that big, it might be nice to show them some more love. As it stands now tho, we don't have anyone developing with experience in SP and the devs main focus surrounds MP.

Offline MaxP

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We obviously don't see any of the single player people since there's nothing keeping track of the people playing SP currently. So I'm wondering how you came to that number. Is there a forum with 2000ish members that only discuss SP stuff? or a discord? Youtube videos?
As I said (and you can see the Stubbfan post) most of sp players are not hanging on the Internet forums/resources, so there is no sense to do any polls.
There is a much difference in sp and mp players behavior, so there is no way to compare it directly in most cases.
- Each game can be more or less interested for sp player. I.e., PR is the mp-biased project, so there're very few of sp/coop players. The mp communities is much more stable.
- Most of adult gamers prefer sp, 'cause there're much of stress in mp for them. So, the high playing difficulty can repel them.
- The sp players are much more spontaneous
etc

Unfortunately, I can't explain it better with my poor english.

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If the SP community is really that big, it might be nice to show them some more love.
It's very big, but, as I said, it is very spontaneous. There is a few numbers of those who're a stable player, but you will know nothing about most of them. Only 1 percent of those who had downloaded my mod, gave me the review via e-mail. It really hurts me.

Ok, let's take the Men of War series for example. Yes, it has a multiplayer, but the game is mostly for singleplayer, so the modding community for it is huge.
Although the AS2 is mp-biased mod (in MoW series), the ratio of players (according to stats now) is 791/36, which means there is 1 mp player for 22 sp.
But - the Men of War has a huge number of sp stuff.
BF2 mods have not.

What was the main problem of FH2 coop? I remember it, of course - there was 0-5 players on servers.
The main problem was the difficulty level.
Since for 10 players it was very easy, for 1 player it was really hard.
Actually, I've set the difficulty in my coop mod for 2 experienced players, and sometimes the team ratio is about 12 vs 90. It's really impossible to win alone, and it's very easy for three of us. So, sometimes there are no challenge at all.

And to the last. Those who're not playing sp/coop, cannot do anything interesting (see the Cretive Assembly games). So there're no point asking us what to do in coop. And, the most important thing - there is no point to ask any community what to do in sp/coop (so, when i see something like "We're working with our community to make a great game" - R.I.P.)
If it's interesting for me - I'll do that. And yes, there will be <1% of any kind of reviews.
« Last Edit: 11-05-2018, 06:05:15 by MaxP »

Online Ts4EVER

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Pretty sure he's right, ages ago I talked to gavrant or maybe Mad, who has access to the launcher statistics, and FH2 is downloaded by thousands of people, way in excess of what ends up on the servers. Now some of them might play the game only once and then quit (I'm sure that happens a lot), but I don't doubt that the large majority plays SP (God knows why).

Offline Slayer

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@MaxP: thanks for your explanation.
I think he's wondering (and I am too) about how you came to that number.
I was indeed wondering this, and now I'm getting an idea. I see what you mean, but imo it's still a bit bold to say the SP community is at least ten times bigger than the MP community, but that is just my opnion.

In CoH2, Relic did some research into their playerbase and there it was like this:
- 1/3 of the playerbase plays MP online
- 1/3 plays "mp battles" against the PC
- 1/3 plays the SP campaign only

Following that logic, FH2 would have an SP community of about 200-600 people mostly. Why? Because there is no SP campaign in FH2, so we add those to the second group in the example above (so that makes 1/3 online and 2/3 SP/Coop). Since the online community is roughly 100-200 people who play regularly, that makes the SP community roughly 200-600 people.

I know about the Launcher downloads too, but these numbers are blown up, because of:
- double downloads by same people
- downloaded but never installed
- installed but never played
- played once and then ditched

But for me it would be totally fine if someone steps up to be the SP dev, because he/she will make lots of people happy :)

Offline MaxP

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In CoH2, Relic did some research into their playerbase and there it was like this:
I'm sure it's not true (in russian it would be the "истина" term, which means "the real true/in reality" and close to "in fact", instead of the term "правда", which means "true" in a common meaning).
This is what I spoke about.
The relics has the statistics on a Steam database. The people who're buying it at Steam mostly wants to play it online - otherwise there is no sense to do it for that price.
CoH2 has a very poor sp campaign. If you'd look at the CoH, which has a much better campaign set, the numbers will differ, but CoH and CoH2 is much more MP oriented - it leads to a very limited SP playability.
Those who prefer SP in a WW2 entourage, will play the Men of War or Theater of War.
So, to find the exact numbers, we need to summ all of these groups of players. It's impossible, so all that we have is the our own gaming experience. So, the more games you've played, the more statistics you'll have.

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Because there is no SP campaign in FH2
Not only the campaing makes the singleplayer game.
I.e., BF2 SP is easy to launch, easy to learn and it is easy to go out.
The common BF round has a very simple motivation: capture the points, shoot and kill.
No complex game mechanics with hundreds of buttons, no micromanagement, no S/L, no inventory.
So it attracts the people who want to play a such way, as for every other game.

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I know about the Launcher downloads too, but these numbers are blown up, because of:
- double downloads by same people
- downloaded but never installed
- installed but never played
- played once and then ditched
The probability of it is the same for all of player categories.
I.e., we have 200 MP players, and 2000 SP players. The ratio is 1/10 (just for example, remember))
10% of each category have downloaded the mod ten times.
Result: 400/4000=1/10 ratio.
So, if Matthew_Baker said that it was 100-150 mp players (example again), so there were 10-15 of them crying in despair together with another 100-150 sp players, who couldn't install it too :)
« Last Edit: 11-05-2018, 12:05:00 by MaxP »

Online nysä

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Stating the obvious here, but I have always liked the co-op for easy and fast entertainment + the fact you can edit the maps to your own liking (vehicles, weapons). It's certainly lacking the element of suprise and it gets boring after awhile, making you wish that the AI could be (more) erratic.

Offline Slayer

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Maybe the language barrier is at play here, but I think you misunderstand me and it might be the other way around too.

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In CoH2, Relic did some research into their playerbase and there it was like this:
I'm sure it's not true (in russian it would be the "истина" term, which means "the real true/in reality" and close to "in fact", instead of the term "правда", which means "true" in a common meaning).
This is what I spoke about.
The relics has the statistics on a Steam database. The people who're buying it at Steam mostly wants to play it online - otherwise there is no sense to do it for that price.
Actually the research was done by checking the data of the Relic gameservers. Also, the Steam price is not very high, so I wouldn't know why people would not buy it on Steam. There are regular discount events in which you can get it for 50% or even 75% off. Moreover, when you got it for free in Humble bundle for example, you can still play online so I don't get your point here.

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Because there is no SP campaign in FH2
Not only the campaing makes the singleplayer game.
I agree, that's why I added the number to the coop part of the playerbase, it is in favour of your point, but even then I can't get to the amount of SP players you are suggesting.

The probability of it is the same for all of player categories.
I.e., we have 200 MP players, and 2000 SP players. The ratio is 1/10 (just for example, remember))
10% of each category have downloaded the mod ten times.
Result: 400/4000=1/10 ratio.
So, if Matthew_Baker said that it was 100-150 mp players (example again), so there were 10-15 of them crying in despair together with another 100-150 sp players, who couldn't install it too :)
I'm sorry, this part I really didn't understand. I fail to see why I have to believe that the SP community is at least 2000 players, even though I would really like that to be true (although imo it would be even better if all those people tried to play online, but that's a different discussion).

Offline MaxP

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Also, the Steam price is not very high, so I wouldn't know why people would not buy it on Steam.
That was my mistake. It can be bought now for the very low price, yes.
When it came out, the price of CoH2 was the same as the Arma 3, which is high enough for us.
Anyway, now this trash is removed from our Steam segment ))

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Actually the research was done by checking the data of the Relic gameservers.
This is the same what I said. Non-official copies of the game doesn't establish connections to the official gameservers.

Offline Slayer

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Non-official copies of the game doesn't establish connections to the official gameservers.
And they can't play SP anymore either without some sort of hack. I wouldn't count those players as "part of the singleplayer community".

Offline MaxP

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And they can't play SP anymore either without some sort of hack.
Emm... What is the problem? I've downloaded it, I've played the campaign. What I did wrong? :)
« Last Edit: 12-05-2018, 10:05:19 by MaxP »

Offline jan_kurator

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Emm... What is the problem? I've downloaded it, I've played the campaign. What I did wrong? :)
The fact that you downloaded anything without buying the product is wrong to begin with, but I guess Russian mentality is a huge factor here and you probably think it's fine, don't you? :)

Anyways, what Slayer meant is probably, that you had to use a crack of some kind to get the illegally downloaded copy of the game working I guess...?
« Last Edit: 13-05-2018, 08:05:52 by jan_kurator »

Offline Michael Z Freeman

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"russian mentality" ?! ::)

I thought we were talking about smoke grenades here. OT.