Author Topic: Berlin  (Read 22260 times)

Offline nysä

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #225 on: 30-11-2018, 10:11:52 »
Great work blander, looks very götterdämmerung-ish.

Not sure about the Tiger II texture tho?

Offline jan_kurator

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #226 on: 30-11-2018, 13:11:23 »
Yeah, German vehicles should use the ambush style of camo scheme, the same Seelow Heights use.

Offline blander

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #227 on: 01-12-2018, 19:12:57 »

Offline nysä

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #228 on: 02-12-2018, 13:12:40 »
Couldn't resist testing it out. Floating objects here and there, but so far so good. Actually, quite suprised how smoothly it ran on my rather outdated system. Great work on the dug-in tanks, they really add authenticity and I like the random but convenient pickup kits left on the streets.

Offline blander

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #229 on: 02-12-2018, 17:12:09 »
I´ll address the KT texture later, noted. Yes, the map still needs a few months of work. I was really worried about the performance, I´m glad it ran smoothly for you. Since it is not a scaled map I just wanted it to have a Berlin feel, as much as possible.

Offline Matthew_Baker

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #230 on: 02-12-2018, 18:12:25 »
Yes, many of the textures would need to be redone to make it look ‘finished’ but it ran ok on my system and had some nice wider corridors which I didn’t expect. I’ll really want to see how it plays on a full server

Offline Ivancic1941

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #231 on: 03-12-2018, 00:12:13 »
-You can easily stuck beetween static tiger and that barrier. So make more distance between tiger and barrier
- Why non-movable AT gun in russian main base? Germans cant get there even if they want
- I would remove Sdkfz7 with towed Pak40. Towing is not working properly and if you hit something with Pak40 while driving you explode. I would replace it with StukaZuFus

Thats for now
Floppy Wardisc or Floppy Wierdbear

Offline blander

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #232 on: 03-12-2018, 00:12:09 »
I knew about the static tiger barrier. It should be made with a single custom static instead of that mashup I made. I had to reach a balance between not getting stuck and making it look good. I´ll see how I can improve that, it will be hard because I don´t know how to model, I have to stick to the mapping tools.

The non-movable AT gun is just for the looks, just like the vierling. They could be removed but I think they add a touch to the map.

The towed Pak40 has to be driven through even streets, otherwise it will get damaged or destroyed (just like in real life). It works wrong if you use it wrong, that´s the point. My recomendation is to drive slowly and conciously.

Offline kutuzovrusss

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #233 on: 03-12-2018, 05:12:47 »
The beta test went well, but can you expand the map in some places?

Offline Matthew_Baker

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #234 on: 03-12-2018, 05:12:45 »
@kutuzovrusss can you show which areas should be expanded and explain why? It would be helpful for blander to know.

[imgur is being a bitch right now so I'll try and upload pics later]

I couldn't make the test today, but I'd like to try to make the next one. Maybe a week or 2 heads up beforehand so there's a possibility of a full server. :D

I had a look around locally and it seems like there's a good base to work with. The sector push makes sense and it seems open enough to not get too bottle-necked. You said the test with 30ish people seemed to go well, so that's promising, but I'd really like to see it with a full server. It seems less like Brest and more like Ramelle (in terms of openness) or a mix of the two which isn't bad.

In terms of aesthetic it still has a long way to go, but I think that once some solid gameplay is laid out, it could be put through the paces to make it look more polished. My advice would be to treat this version as a 'white box' similar to this where the textures and details will come later, and it's more about the statics and terrain being placed and tweaked for gameplay.

I would suggest taking people's gameplay suggestions into account and adjusting the map into a new iteration to be play tested again (and again, and again if necessary) until the gameplay is where you want it. THEN, things like details, textures, effects, floaters, etc... can be commented on and improved.

Other than gameplay (which I won't comment much on since I didn't playtest) there are some things I noticed that I think you could look at improving for your next iteration;

Performance:
I got the flag bug the first time I played and there were also some FPS drops in areas with lots of smoke etc... A few suggestions;

Textures:
I forget how many unique statics you're at, but you should look at trimming the number down. I saw some vehicle wrecks that aren't also Player Controlled vehicles (ie an LRDG Chevy). As a rule of thumb you should try to only place vehicle wrecks that are also vehicles on your map. Otherwise the map is loading a texture that's only being used on a wreck. Also, the T-34 uses 2 textures when it could use one. And the German tanks can all use the '45 Seelow textures for now (custom stuff can come later).

Types of Statics:
You should also try to avoid using 'map-specific' statics (I saw the Pegasus Cafe a few times) as they're very distinct and made for that one map. I would stick to using only building types from 'France' and 'East Front' and swap out statics that aren't from those folders. In general, it would be good to comb through the map static folder in the Editor and look at statics that are used only 1 or 2 times and think about replacing them with others. (this is what I'm doing on my map now). For example you use two types of light posts, when you really only need 1 type. (the player doesn't notice the 2 types in the heat of battle).

Open Buildings:
There are some areas where you use open buildings but they're not really useful (I'm thinking of one on the road to the ruins flag) where it's a large open building that loads many textures and gets many lightmaps, but it doesn't allow you to overlook a flag, it isn't a building that is located in a flag and it doesn't lead the player to a new route or path. So imo it's just a performance waste. In general, I would keep open buildings (especially with an urban map this big, with some many ruins) in the flag zones. The rest of the areas can use closed buildings. I would go through and trim your open buildings.

Smoke
Smoke is a big performance hog so I would use it more sparingly. I like the effect of a ruined city that it gives, but it can definitely be trimmed. Sometimes I'll turn a corner and see 4-5 smoke plumes at one time. If you think about where to place them, you can place them so that the player only ever sees 1-2 at a time but almost always sees one wherever he goes. So he's constantly seeing smoke plumes but never too many at once.

Player Movement
There are lots of places where it's tough to get into doors, you have to jump over obstacles, or can get stuck etc.... I would look for those areas and run around yourself to make sure the player can move freely and easily through the map.

There is also an area on the road to Ruins where you can access an area that I don't think you want the player accessing. It's just a matter of building up the terrain around it more.

I think there's a lot of work to be done, but I do see potential in the map. Especially if people enjoyed the way it played. If you're willing to put in the work and time, I think it could be something really cool. If you feel like scrapping it and taking what you've learned and moving on, that's fine too.

I hope it can be made into something polished and fun to play tho. Not every day we get a Berlin map in the works  :)

EDIT: Here's the images I wanted to add before;
https://imgur.com/a/NbGUmBH
« Last Edit: 04-12-2018, 05:12:03 by Matthew_Baker »

Offline blander

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #235 on: 03-12-2018, 06:12:18 »
I think there must be a really good reason to expand the map. That would require even more objects, which I am avoiding. If I were to open it up then I would probably need to shrink/close another sector to reduce the object count.

In the future I plan on modifying some buildings and reduce them to just 1 wall instead of 4. That will help reduce the memory usage. This will be in a future patch though, first I have to learn how to do that.

I didn´t know that about the wrecks, I will replace those. I´m against having just 1 texture for all the T-34s and Panthers. I know I have to work on performance but I think that would just be too plain. Currently there are 3 Panther textures in use, I will reduce it to 2.

What is the Pegasus cafe you are talking about? If you can get me a screenshot or the static´s name I´ll have a look. In general, there are not many buildings to choose from. Maybe a texture tweak could help to make it different. I think there are 3 types of light posts. I could reduce them to 2.

About that open building you say, yes, it is pretty huge and useless. There has been some action there but I´m not sure if it is worthy. The original design idea was to have panzerfausts there. There are other open buildings which I plan on closing.

I´ll do what you say with the smoke columns.

I was aware of the various glitches, I just didn´t care too much on fixing those before the test because they wouldn´t affect gameplay. The test helped me to find more and to realise where rubble objects should be removed to allow a better flow for the tanks.

Thanks for the feedback. I´d like to have another test in january after I fix some of this stuff.
« Last Edit: 03-12-2018, 06:12:15 by blander »

Offline Matthew_Baker

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #236 on: 03-12-2018, 13:12:51 »
If you have the static modeling skill to make sets of buildings without rear faces for the map boundaries, that would be ideal. The trick is making them modular as well so they can be used on other maps, and also come in set sizes (2m, 4m, 6m, 8m etc... similar to how our trenches and walls are set up).

In the end, this map might require a static modeling expert, it’s just a matter of if you wear both of those hats or not. (It would take a lot of time) I think if the models we have are placed right, a retexture can make it convincing.

Whatever you do to the map, you want to get it to a point where it doesn’t cause the flag bug or severe FPS drops, otherwise, it won’t be played on a public server. It’s always a balance of gameplay (I want this open building here for people to fight in) vs performance (I need to close this building to improve the maps performance) so those are just some tips to improve the latter.

I’ll upload the pics when I’m home and imgur let’s me

Offline Slayer

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #237 on: 03-12-2018, 22:12:36 »
I think there must be a really good reason to expand the map. That would require even more objects, which I am avoiding. If I were to open it up then I would probably need to shrink/close another sector to reduce the object count.
If it played well according to your wishes in terms of gameplay, no expansion is needed.

What is the Pegasus cafe you are talking about? If you can get me a screenshot or the static´s name I´ll have a look.

This is the Pegasus Cafe, the Café Gondrée:
(the building in the middle)

I think there are 3 types of light posts. I could reduce them to 2.
Or one ;)

About that open building you say, yes, it is pretty huge and useless. There has been some action there but I´m not sure if it is worthy. The original design idea was to have panzerfausts there. There are other open buildings which I plan on closing.
Sounds like it can be closed without much hesitation.

Thanks for the feedback. I´d like to have another test in january after I fix some of this stuff.
I'd like to test it too, but Sunday evening is also regular testing for FH2 as a whole, so if you want FH2 devs and/or testers to join the test, please pick another evening :)

Offline blander

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #238 on: 04-12-2018, 02:12:00 »
I used that static way too much to have it replaced easily. I´ll see if I can retexture it and make it look different. If I fail I´ll think about removing it.

Alright, I´ll have just 1 lightpost type.

Good to know when you test official FH2 stuff. CMP campaign battles are on fridays so saturdays are left. Next playtest should be on saturday.

Offline blander

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #239 on: 05-12-2018, 03:12:58 »