Author Topic: Berlin  (Read 12797 times)

Offline blander

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #270 on: 13-12-2018, 12:12:56 »

Offline Alubat

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #271 on: 16-12-2018, 12:12:30 »
Looks and plays great.
Only thing I would change a bit if engine can handle it
Put more smoke & flames in the streets. Its possible to watch from one end to the other in most streets.

Cant wait to play on a full server

Offline jan_kurator

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #272 on: 16-12-2018, 13:12:23 »
Only thing I would change a bit if engine can handle it
Put more smoke & flames in the streets. Its possible to watch from one end to the other in most streets.
Engine cant' handle that unfortunately, smoke drastically affects the performance in BF2. View distance can be always limited to help it.

Offline Slayer

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #273 on: 16-12-2018, 15:12:46 »
OK, I made an imgur album with my screenshots, and in the screenshots it says why I took it: https://imgur.com/a/wZJKJj2

Some points:
- I can see you put a lot of work into this map, good job!
- When walking around the map I get the feeling that I'm in a big city, which is good.
- The level of destruction varies quite a lot: one street is clean, the next one is full of rubble. A bit more consistency would be nice, overall I think too many streets look very clean. More rubble would not only make it look better, but it would also provide more cover for infantry.
- Some vehicles spawn in a weird postion, like slightly uphill or partially into a sidewalk. It looks bad so better move them forward a bit.
- There is a tankditch in the SW corner of the map, I think it's a cool feature but it's also a bit useless because you can just drive into teh next street and pass the ditch that way.
- The Hospital building is a bit too big, it's almost a map in itself. I would close a part of it, so people will only go into the relevant parts. Also, the flagzone is a bit too low atm: vehicles can cap from outside
- When you're gonna cut down on open buildings, delete the ones which are not in a flagzone first (I have one example in the screenshots).
- I also gave some examples of stuff which doesn't seem natural or logical, like a street full of destruction with nice and tidy trees growing in them. I'd replace those trees with burnt treest wherever possible, so the complete picture looks better.

In the testing the Boulevard flag was being defend by one KT and the flanking options were non-existent. Of course this needs to be tested with more people, but keep in mind that it might be too much of a bottleneck, maybe open up some small sidestreets for infantry so they can flank the big cats and faust them.

All in all good job on this map so far, it really feels like a big city, it doesn't really feel like Berlin (yet) but you would need mapspecific statics for that. Maybe you can find some modeler willing to make a Berlin building or two for you, that would be great.

Offline ahalol

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #274 on: 16-12-2018, 18:12:45 »
    After playing it on Saturday, I found this map very fun. I can see it has great potentials! I have some recommendations:
    • I liked the large number of enter-able buildings, it makes the map into an urban combat zone. It would be better if you can add even more ;).
    • With that being said, I think it is going to be hard for the Russians to capture 2 flags at the same time (especially the hospital) in order to move on the next zone. Why don't you make it so that each flag is not recappable by the German?
    • In addition, I would love to see more Panzerschreck. I was only able to find one.

    Nevertheless, thank you for the efforts!

Offline Slayer

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #275 on: 16-12-2018, 21:12:12 »
  • I liked the large number of enter-able buildings, it makes the map into an urban combat zone. It would be better if you can add even more ;).
You know open buildings are a large burden on performance, right? Adding more is not only unnecessary, but it will make performance suffer when greater numbers if players will be playing on the map.

On a performance note: I forgot to mention that I had fps between 100 and 200 mostly, average of 140, with some peaks to above 250. That's quite nice considering this map has so many statics.

Offline blander

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #276 on: 16-12-2018, 23:12:53 »
Thank you for coming and for your feedback, it´s going to help improve the map a lot.

About smoke and flames. After the first test I removed around 40 smoke effects and 10 fire effects. As a result of this, performace improved a whole lot during the second test.


- There is a tankditch in the SW corner of the map, I think it's a cool feature but it's also a bit useless because you can just drive into teh next street and pass the ditch that way.

I put the ditch there to prevent tanks from spamming the german spawnpoints, which are right after the ditch. It has a gameplay purpose and also the germans IRL blocked some streets to bottleneck the russian tanks into traps so it doesn´t look so off to me. If you still think it looks off then I could just replace it with a row of buildings to protect the spawnpoints, let me know what you think about it.

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- The Hospital building is a bit too big, it's almost a map in itself. I would close a part of it, so people will only go into the relevant parts. Also, the flagzone is a bit too low atm: vehicles can cap from outside

"Hospital" is just a placeholder name, btw. The buildings that were there on the previous test-game were just as big. It didn´t look bad in my oppinion with enough players, last time we were just too few to test properly. I like how this building has a lot of room for fighting, I really think closing areas would be a waste and would become too grenade spammy on a full server. Capzone will be higher and smaller, yes.

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- I also gave some examples of stuff which doesn't seem natural or logical, like a street full of destruction with nice and tidy trees growing in them. I'd replace those trees with burnt treest wherever possible, so the complete picture looks better.





Does it look so different? There is a lot of trash and rubble though also trees.





There doesn´t seem to be much destruction here either.





Not the best looking but decent I think.

Quote
In the testing the Boulevard flag was being defend by one KT and the flanking options were non-existent. Of course this needs to be tested with more people, but keep in mind that it might be too much of a bottleneck, maybe open up some small sidestreets for infantry so they can flank the big cats and faust them.

In the previous test Boulevard flag was way too easy to capture for the russians (15 vs 15). To improve this I added an unlock timer and a fixed defensive MG42. Keep in mind that the russians have about twice (or more) as many tanks as the germans so a single KT shouldn´t be a match for 4 tanks flanking it. Of couse it is not the same in a 6 vs 6 scenario.

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All in all good job on this map so far, it really feels like a big city, it doesn't really feel like Berlin (yet) but you would need mapspecific statics for that. Maybe you can find some modeler willing to make a Berlin building or two for you, that would be great.

After I release the map for public play I intend to learn modeling and make some optimized custom assets to enhance the map´s performance. I could attempt a specific building but which one? The map is not historically accurate, it´s just an invention. What building (non generic) do you think could be a good addition for the map?

Quote
With that being said, I think it is going to be hard for the Russians to capture 2 flags at the same time (especially the hospital) in order to move on the next zone. Why don't you make it so that each flag is not recappable by the German?
In addition, I would love to see more Panzerschreck. I was only able to find one.

Russians are favored to win, in both play-tests. I think making flags non recappable would make it just impossible for the germans. I will add more pickups in general for both sides. I didn´t care much about that for the tests because those details can be address in the final stages.

Quote
On a performance note: I forgot to mention that I had fps between 100 and 200 mostly, average of 140, with some peaks to above 250. That's quite nice considering this map has so many statics.

I opened many buildings in Meshviewer and sorted out the most optimized ones. The ones with missing LODs or just too poly-heavy were discarded or reduced in numbers. I´m glad I reached a playable level.

My plan now is to optimize the map even more, add more destroyed buildings, add more rubble and trash on the streets, fix all textures, lightmaps and little details.

After all that is done (will take at least 2 months) maybe we can have a final playtest in search of any kind of mistake or bug, not just gameplay.

Offline Slayer

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #277 on: 16-12-2018, 23:12:29 »
I put the ditch there to prevent tanks from spamming the german spawnpoints, which are right after the ditch. It has a gameplay purpose and also the germans IRL blocked some streets to bottleneck the russian tanks into traps so it doesn´t look so off to me. If you still think it looks off then I could just replace it with a row of buildings to protect the spawnpoints, let me know what you think about it.
OK, fair enough. I didn't know about the spawn protection. It just looks a bit odd that you can simply turn your tank and then drive into the next street, but it's totally fine if you want to keep it like this.

- I also gave some examples of stuff which doesn't seem natural or logical, like a street full of destruction with nice and tidy trees growing in them. I'd replace those trees with burnt treest wherever possible, so the complete picture looks better.





Does it look so different? There is a lot of trash and rubble though also trees.





There doesn´t seem to be much destruction here either.
From when were those pictures? The Hetzer one is from Warsaw if I have to believe the url. The one with the ISU seems from after the battle, in a street which didn't see much action. Still, there is a knocked over tree on the left there, probably because tanks drove over it.

edit: what I can find about this pic is that it was taken in May 1945, so chances are pretty big that it was after the battle.

What I'm trying to get across is that you are depicting a battle in the streets of Berlin and the streets just don't look much like they were fought in.





Not the best looking but decent I think.
If it doesn't affect performance all that much, it's a cool feature to keep.

Keep in mind that the russians have about twice (or more) as many tanks as the germans so a single KT shouldn´t be a match for 4 tanks flanking it. Of couse it is not the same in a 6 vs 6 scenario.
Problem is that you couldn't flank the KT properly. From the front it can only be hurt much by the IS2 and the ISU, both vehicles with a much longer reload time than the KT, therefore offering the KT an easy job by 2-shotting the Russians. Let's see, maybe it's not a problem at all with more players, but the KT could now pretty easily pick the tanks one by one and keeping the flag safe.

What building (non generic) do you think could be a good addition for the map?
Maybe an Opera House, like Berlin has on Unter den Linden? I'll think about this a little more and if I come up with more options I'll post them.

My plan now is to optimize the map even more, add more destroyed buildings, add more rubble and trash on the streets, fix all textures, lightmaps and little details.
Sounds great!
« Last Edit: 17-12-2018, 00:12:56 by Slayer »

Offline Jimi Hendrix

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #278 on: 17-12-2018, 18:12:04 »
 Keep up the good work blander. We are all watching the progress.

 8)



Offline blander

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #279 on: 24-12-2018, 05:12:15 »
Some more destruction and cover for infantry








Offline Slayer

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #280 on: 24-12-2018, 09:12:02 »
Nice, keep it up  :)

Maybe a crater in the road here and there to break things up nicely.

Online Ts4EVER

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #281 on: 24-12-2018, 09:12:25 »
Generally speaking when making cover for infantry it is best to cluster the objects a bit so they are more useful for that purpose.

Offline blander

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #282 on: 24-12-2018, 14:12:44 »
Alright, will do. I noticed during tests that tanks have trouble going through some places. Problem is statics like lamp posts, little crates and barrels completely block tanks, which does not happen IRL. The solution I came up with is making enough room for tanks to maneuver. I could probably put on the streets objects with colmeshes that don´t affect tanks. What I don´t like about that is that you have to guess which objects have "antitank" colmeshes and which are free to roll through.
« Last Edit: 24-12-2018, 14:12:24 by blander »

Offline SgtAlex

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #283 on: 30-12-2018, 21:12:29 »
Another option is to make the lightposts destroyable, I remember that there is a stop sign in BF2 that is destroyable by any vehicle, you can drive over it and destroy it. There is a tutorial about how to do destroyable statics in the editor itself, help tab iirc. Maybe it can be done via tmp.con, so no need of a new static. This last thing is just a supposition.

There is a big lack of destroyable objects in the mod, I read once that they affected perfomance or something like that, cant remember exactly what was the reason, but 15 years later of BF2 launch, I dont think a little more of workload will significantly affect perfomance, but of course I doubt it's matter of hardware, but the engine itself. However, BF2 had many destroyable objects, fuel barrels, bridges, road signs, wooden walls, wooden crates... and perfomance was good back then, so...

Offline jan_kurator

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Re: Berlin
« Reply #284 on: 30-12-2018, 23:12:29 »
Those affect performance indeed, and it's an engine issue and not hardware related, it can make map lag no matter what (or cause dozen of other weird bugs). Then it raises the question, why object X is destructible but Y is not. Keep in mind that BF2 is also so much less demanding than FH2. This mod is pushing engine to the limits in some aspects already.