Author Topic: Wirbelwind sight problem  (Read 2209 times)

Offline Strat_84

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Wirbelwind sight problem
« on: 14-09-2009, 00:09:48 »
I don't know if anyone noticed but the aiming sight doesn't fit with the holes in the armor plates, so that aiming a target on the ground is impossible if it's not on a hill.

Is this an intended feature ?
« Last Edit: 19-09-2009, 20:09:34 by Admiral Donutz »


Offline Fuchs

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Re: Wirbelwind sight problem
« Reply #1 on: 14-09-2009, 08:09:09 »
it's an AA vehicle, don't kill us grunts with it.
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Offline Toddel

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Re: Wirbelwind sight problem
« Reply #2 on: 14-09-2009, 10:09:52 »
maybe its intentional? ;)

Offline Strat_84

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Re: Wirbelwind sight problem
« Reply #3 on: 14-09-2009, 11:09:22 »
That's why I'm asking, but actually it should not.

The wirbelwind was as deadly for infantry as for planes. I can't remember exactly when, but it happened that a single wirbelwind completly exterminated or routed a 800 men platoon in northern France. And then, if the guns can be lowered enough to aim the ground, then it makes sense that the aiming sight also allows to aim ground targets  ;)
« Last Edit: 14-09-2009, 12:09:16 by Strat_84 »


Offline Thorondor123

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Re: Wirbelwind sight problem
« Reply #4 on: 14-09-2009, 11:09:04 »
Two words: Slopes and approximation ^^
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Offline Eat Uranium

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Re: Wirbelwind sight problem
« Reply #5 on: 14-09-2009, 12:09:44 »
You can always just shoot at the infantry in non sight mode aiming using the tracers.

Offline DLFReporter

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Re: Wirbelwind sight problem
« Reply #6 on: 14-09-2009, 17:09:15 »
No come on EU that would be to logical.  ;D
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Offline Strat_84

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Re: Wirbelwind sight problem
« Reply #7 on: 15-09-2009, 10:09:05 »
You can always just shoot at the infantry in non sight mode aiming using the tracers.

Mmmmhhhhh, I'm sure that's what the crews were told in real life.

- Sir, we can't defend ourselves against infantry, there's a damn armor plate shutting the aiming sight !

- Just fire randomly and see where the shells fall, you dumb NOOB. Got ist mit uns !

 ;D

More seriously, after having a look at a few wirbelwind pictures I spotted a kind of little "door" in the front turret armor plate, exactly where the aiming sight should be when the vierling is lowered. Guess what is its purpose :P
« Last Edit: 15-09-2009, 10:09:41 by Strat_84 »


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Re: Wirbelwind sight problem
« Reply #8 on: 15-09-2009, 13:09:36 »
Then guess again why the Devs decided to leave it out. ;)
Gameplay is more important than realism in many points.
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Offline Strat_84

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Re: Wirbelwind sight problem
« Reply #9 on: 15-09-2009, 13:09:55 »
Well, if I were told they just forgot this and don't want to fix it because it's too much work, I may surely understand this as a former modder.

But if you tell me it's just because one had a brilliant "balancing" idea (which actually doesn't balance much but ruins the wirbelwind pilot's game), then:

1°) I would answer that he forgot to "balance" the static vierlings spread all over the maps
2°) My esteem for FH, which was for me THE mod aimed at realistic WW2 fights, is clearly going down.

 :-X

edit: typos
« Last Edit: 15-09-2009, 14:09:00 by Strat_84 »


Offline DLFReporter

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Re: Wirbelwind sight problem
« Reply #10 on: 15-09-2009, 14:09:16 »
1°) I would answer that he forgot to "balance" the static vierlings spread all over the maps
2°) My esteem for FH, which was for me THE mod aimed at realistic WW2 fights, is clearly going down.

 :-X

edit: typos

1. About the Vierlings ALL OVER the maps (you can actually find them only at one flag and only on an airfield) are mostly placed so that they can't rape infantry soldiers. And this is due to gameplay aspects!
2. The mod is aiming at as realistic WW2 fights as possible without sacrificing the fun for the side which in RL just got raped by the more powerful opponent.

This has been stated time and time again. When will you notice it strat
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Offline Strat_84

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Re: Wirbelwind sight problem
« Reply #11 on: 15-09-2009, 16:09:00 »
Sorry but I am pointing out is that your statement isn't consistent at all.

You tell me the aiming sight is shut in lowered position on purpose to prevent infantry rapping. Let's admit it.

But it doesn't prevent from shooting ground targets as underlined EU, just makes it painful. The reload time and rate of fire of the vierling still allow a continuous fire on a ground area and this is far enough to rape infantry (even if again it's painful, but it won't refrain a guy that wants his bunch of frags).
So the realism is broken, and the purpose of this digression isn't reached. The only tangible result is frustration for the guy that uses the wirbelwind, expects a great AA / AI weapon, and get a great AA but a "I can shoot infantry but it's nearly like I was cheating" armor.


Now let's consider the following facts: there is only one wirbelwind in one map, this map has many slopes and bushes, so that it's still possible to use the aiming sight on ground targets in some circumstances, and it's also impossible to "rape" the whole map because of the bushes, obstacles etc ...
And even if the wirbelwind is set in the right position, and starts battering infantry in open field, what are you expecting ? This armor has a high profile, and its continuous fire makes it easy to spot. If it isn't outflanked and PIATed, it will quickly get an arty or sherman shot, or even a rocket if it remains too concentrated on ground instead on air targets.

So again, which is the interest of the digression ? none.

Let's also remember that FH 1 has a fully operationnal Ostwind, that is as efficient against infantry as a wirbelwind, and this doesn't unbalance maps at all.

To conclude, in this particular case:
- Realism is ignored
- This doesn't make the game more fun as allied (as a usual Allied player, I would even say it softens a potential challenge)
- This cuts the fun to play as german with that vehicle


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Re: Wirbelwind sight problem
« Reply #12 on: 15-09-2009, 16:09:57 »
Long text but still you are not consistent as well.
The Wirbelwind can only rape infantry when intentionally stationed on a hillside. Now Totalize has hills and thus it is possible, but  you have to go through allot in order to put it to that purpose.

Now you cry realism, but in effect you say because there is a chance of abuse by some the devs should open up the abuse for all?

Come on. I can read that you are unhappy that your toy is less effective, but don't try to argument from there...

Quote
To conclude, in this particular case:
- Realism is ignored
Yes, for the sake of gameplay.
- This doesn't make the game more fun as allied (as a usual Allied player, I would even say it softens a potential challenge)
LoL what an argument. Things would be way worse than they are now.
- This cuts the fun to play as german with that vehicle.
As I said above, just because it is your favourite toy does not count.
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Offline Strat_84

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Re: Wirbelwind sight problem
« Reply #13 on: 15-09-2009, 18:09:14 »
Come on. I can read that you are unhappy that your toy is less effective, but don't try to argument from there...

Well, I only played Totalize once on german side, and only because the server didn't allow me to change team. Calling this my favorite toy is quite convenient for you, but you talk without any knowledge of the guy.  ::)

The Wirbelwind can only rape infantry when intentionally stationed on a hillside. Now Totalize has hills and thus it is possible, but  you have to go through allot in order to put it to that purpose

I'll write it again because you do not seem to understand: shooting ground targets is possible in ANY CASE because the vehicle has the right vertical traverse, so shooting infantry is possible using tracers and spamming a ground area. It is just a bit painful because you can't use the aiming sight.

Now you cry realism, but in effect you say because there is a chance of abuse by some the devs should open up the abuse for all.

What you call abuse is the vehicle itself. In RL it was "abuse" also vs aircrafts and infantry, but it still has counterparts and can be easily beaten. So it has to be fully done (and balanced with the maps, for exemple with very long respawn times), or not done at all. Implementing half of it is the worst solution.


Online VonMudra

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Re: Wirbelwind sight problem
« Reply #14 on: 15-09-2009, 19:09:41 »
Honestly, I think the bigger question, is WHY was the 20mm shrapnel toned down to the point of almost being nonexistent?