Author Topic: FH2: All New 2.5 Maps [SP/COOP] DOWNLOAD  (Read 22064 times)

Offline gamerjer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 173
    • View Profile
Re: FH2: All New 2.5 Maps [SP/COOP] DOWNLOAD
« Reply #15 on: 25-02-2016, 13:02:59 »
the artilllery tractor and the captured french tank was not ready for bot support yet? i couldnt  see those new units at pegasus bridge map =-p
They are perfectly usable, however I haven't seen the AI actually use the artillery tractor. Probably the same issues as with the Katyusha mentioned by djinn above. You can find both vehicles on the SOUTH part of the map, which is the 32 size layer. As for why the map is split, please refer to the opening post.

if you put a fix on do we have to redownload the maps?
As it is now, yes. I won't be releasing standalone hotfixes / patches to download separatly during the first week after release or so.

another thing i wonder why your work wont be included in the official game or the devs want to use your work as basics improve it and use it later on in the launcher? (just curious) ;D
I can't speak for the devs. But using my work as a basis for improvement to meet FH2 standards is not possible. For that several EF statics would have to be adjusted for navemshing and then the navmesh would have to be regenerated, which means you'd have to do everything from scratch again, which would render my work or any already generated navmesh obsolete.

maby this question is kinda out of place here but
is it possible for bot support on naval maps like pacific, supplies for malta and such? or maps where the bots needs to jump out of an transport plane at the start of the game (catania 64) :P
I have looked into this as part of my Forgotten Maps Project about a year ago. Short answer: NO. Long answer: Water is a problem, especially the ships, a major part of the WaW/FHT Pacific Maps, are a problem. I won't say it is impossible, but tbh, with the exception of Wake Island - the bf1942 ported Pacific Maps look rather... graphically and optically underwhelming, to put it lightly. As for Catania and most of the other Italy maps from WaW/FHT - although Para Spawns are possible (yet complicated) there are some issues with these as well as a bunch of other community maps that prevent me from generating pathfinding on them. Basically the Editor will CTD if you try and just produce another useless dump file. I couldn't figure out why, I am suspecting custom Statics though. But I won't invest more time in that issue, it did cost me enough already.
ah alright =-p i understand thanks for the info man ;D ;)
by the way i still have a unfinished map in my files called reichswald, it looks nice but doenst have a loading info/song and no picture it was once made by a guy called sn00x but as far as i know never finished (dunno why though the map looks finished) so my final question :P
would bot support be able there? its seems a quite flat forest map good for infantry battles :)

Offline Darman

  • FH-Betatester
  • ***
  • Posts: 226
    • View Profile
Re: FH2: All New 2.5 Maps [SP/COOP] DOWNLOAD
« Reply #16 on: 25-02-2016, 14:02:10 »
@djinn: I will look into that. Keep in mind that most AT Guns on Arad are meant to be mobile though and spawn in base locations, not defensive positions.
I will give that Katyusha another try then, but don't get your hopes up. This is a low priority.

@gamerjer: If the map itself is finished, I can add the loadscreen/-song/navmesh/etc for it. I remember Reichswald came up in the Forgotten Maps thread (where it belongs) but back then I decided to not include the map because sn00x always added AI support to his maps on his own. Are you positive that he has discontinued work on the project? Is he still active? I'd have to get his permission first in any case.

Offline djinn

  • Masterspammer
  • ****
  • Posts: 5.723
    • View Profile
Re: FH2: All New 2.5 Maps [SP/COOP] DOWNLOAD
« Reply #17 on: 25-02-2016, 14:02:47 »
Sure. Absolutely appreciated.

Final note: I think it would help on a map like Seelow, to make defenders spawn on static guns.

There have been two approaches used in standard maps.
That used in Totalize locks all defensive vehicles such as 88s and mgs to enemy so that defenders can't use them once the base switches hands.

The other is open spawn vehicles like on El Alamein. I think a combination of the two works depending on what you deem strategic.

mg facing the Russians, for instance, should definitely be side-locked. Where as the 88s in 360 positions can be open spawners.

But spawners are key so that the first line bases aren't so easy to take without some defensive action. A map like Seelow and Dukla pass ought to be slugfest, requiring players to flank and try to take out key targets before worrying about infantry.

Great job again with the maps. I love how confidently tanks move around these maps that by their very appearance are quite a nightmare to navigate.

Offline Darman

  • FH-Betatester
  • ***
  • Posts: 226
    • View Profile
Re: FH2: All New 2.5 Maps [SP/COOP] DOWNLOAD
« Reply #18 on: 25-02-2016, 15:02:28 »
Final note: I think it would help on a map like Seelow, to make defenders spawn on static guns.

I actually spent quite a lot of time on this issue. Not so much the MGs, you are right, they should be sided, I will do that.

But the AT guns. First problem is: No matter how much I try to change this: A good third of the German AI will spawn back at the base, not the front line. It is unfortunate, but I couldn't get it to work any other way. At one point I had it so that all Frontline AT guns were initially manned by bots via "EnterOnSpawn" spawners for AI. Here is the problem - The soviet IL-2 Bomber instantly recognizes the threats by the 88s and bombs the shit out of them before any russian tank reaches the front line or before you as player can enter the gun to use it yourself. I usually play Seelow as defender, so that is kind of the priority perspective. Thats also why on Dukla Pass AT guns have been reduced or replaced by weaker models. Russian tanks would just drop left and right otherwise and the defending faction could lean back and enjoy the Bots doing their work. It is delicate issue, the balance here, but when in doubt, I always looked forward to provide the best experience to the Axis side, since I don't ever play as the Soviets.

I am actually quite happy with the situation right now, but it is simply biased an there is little I can do about it.

Offline Michael Z Freeman

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 706
  • The Few are many;) (Used to be known as DJ Barney)
    • View Profile
    • Homepage
Re: FH2: All New 2.5 Maps [SP/COOP] DOWNLOAD
« Reply #19 on: 25-02-2016, 15:02:11 »
Missed the HE shells a little bit but no big deal.

Missed HE as well. Not sure about the reasoning behind removing these. Are'nt attacking bots supposed to be slaughtered en masse ?  :D But I tend to play defensivly so am used to having the HE there. I guess it could cause problems in other contexts.

is it possible for bot support on naval maps like pacific, supplies for malta and such?

I'm interested in this as well. I love Omaha Beach with the destroyers firing their big guns. The AI seem to make it to the beach, but I guess its a small map as naval maps go and of course the destroyers are static.

The soviet IL-2 Bomber instantly recognizes the threats by the 88s and bombs the shit out of them before any russian tank reaches the front line or before you as player can enter the gun to use it yourself.

Is'nt that what its supposed to do ? I'm not sure about some of this balance stuff. Some maps are going to be easier one side or the other and don't forget that some of it will be played Coop with X number of human players evening up any imbalance, assuming they know about it fo course but I'd think that's half the fun here. I can be almost pulling out my hair getting bombed all the time by Stuka's on the Africa maps after going half way across the map with a tank only to have my attack thwarted. But is'nt this the kind of thing that FH is very good at doing ?; It ain't fair.
« Last Edit: 25-02-2016, 15:02:29 by DJ Barney »

Offline gamerjer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 173
    • View Profile
Re: FH2: All New 2.5 Maps [SP/COOP] DOWNLOAD
« Reply #20 on: 25-02-2016, 15:02:50 »
@Darman i dont know what his plans are sn00x is last active: 09-04-2015, 22:04:25
i have no idea if hes still around or will come back someday and continue his map or not i remember he put his map on the forum here for people to chek it out or something i downloaded to see what it was like, but never heard or see anything about it again after that :-\

Offline Darman

  • FH-Betatester
  • ***
  • Posts: 226
    • View Profile
Re: FH2: All New 2.5 Maps [SP/COOP] DOWNLOAD
« Reply #21 on: 25-02-2016, 21:02:08 »
New Patch currently uploading. Further improvements made to the Seelow Navmesh (especially for the 16p layer), defensive emplacements are now team bound and the La-5 FN propeller was fixed.



But is'nt this the kind of thing that FH is very good at doing ?; It ain't fair.
Most definitly, sure. But djinns point here was that defensive emplacements should be instantly manned so that they are more of a challenge for the attackers to overcome. My point is: When I make this happen, it will become worse because the laser guided bombers will instantly wreck everything before you as attacker even arrive at the line. And just trust me about the HEs. I mean you can simply revert the change manually, but the spam is just too heavy against the attackers. MGs are there to engage infantry masses, PaKs aren't.

« Last Edit: 25-02-2016, 21:02:40 by Darman »

Offline gamerjer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 173
    • View Profile
Re: FH2: All New 2.5 Maps [SP/COOP] DOWNLOAD
« Reply #22 on: 25-02-2016, 22:02:38 »
verry nice!  ;) :D

Offline gavrant

  • (Almost) retired dev
  • Moderator
  • ***
  • Posts: 598
    • View Profile
Re: FH2: All New 2.5 Maps [SP/COOP] DOWNLOAD
« Reply #23 on: 26-02-2016, 01:02:57 »
I think the Katyusha with _ai can be a clone. The only difference between the _ai version is that it's point of view is about 15m in the air so it sees over stuff. You might try also making it driver/ gunner so it stops and fires instead of having some idiot bot drive it off - Or try reducing the heat of driver should do also.

Sadly, I doubt Gavrant will ever make an _ai katyusha. On principle, Gavrant doesn't believe mobile arty should have that as it tends to make them more clumsy to drive by both bots and humans.

This is wrong. The Stuka zu Fuss, Willys Calliope and Katjusha do get the cameras raised by a couple of meters in SP/Co-op automatically, without any _ai clones (if the map is properly packed). This is enough if the AI view distance on the map matches the "human" view distance. Raising the cameras more will increase the risk of hitting a wall just in front and killing half of their own team, so they must be treated as direct firing weapons in the hands of AI.

Offline Darman

  • FH-Betatester
  • ***
  • Posts: 226
    • View Profile
Re: FH2: All New 2.5 Maps [SP/COOP] DOWNLOAD
« Reply #24 on: 26-02-2016, 02:02:14 »
This is wrong. The Stuka zu Fuss, Willys Calliope and Katjusha do get the cameras raised by a couple of meters in SP/Co-op automatically, without any _ai clones (if the map is properly packed). This is enough if the AI view distance on the map matches the "human" view distance. Raising the cameras more will increase the risk of hitting a wall just in front and killing half of their own team, so they must be treated as direct firing weapons in the hands of AI.

A considerable risk. If friendly fire is enabled, that is. But on the other hand - I only ever saw the AI operated static Nebelwerfer as a weapon system of that kind effectively using the rockets. The Katyusha is doing it occasionally, but really mostly as a medium range direct fire measure - probably due to the AI view distance though. That one is usually rather low to prevent Bots from firing their handhelds at ineffective range.
However good to know, thanks for the hint. Since you mentioned proper packing - I suppose this feature is implemented by the "aifixes.con" ?
« Last Edit: 26-02-2016, 02:02:54 by Darman »

Offline gavrant

  • (Almost) retired dev
  • Moderator
  • ***
  • Posts: 598
    • View Profile
Re: FH2: All New 2.5 Maps [SP/COOP] DOWNLOAD
« Reply #25 on: 26-02-2016, 03:02:37 »
Static artillery pieces, like the Nebelwerfer, are usually located in relatively open places, with no obstacles right in front of them, and somewhat behind the front line. And even if it's not the case, the SP mapper often can find a better position to put that arty. That's why they work fine with the cameras raised by the standard 10m or so, even despite the fact that moving the primary camera in a vehicle decreases AI accuracy with the weapon(s). With mobile arty pieces, on contrary, you can't guess where the bots will discharge all their HE load, it may be an open field, but more often than not it can be a narrow street in the middle of a town.

... probably due to the AI view distance though. That one is usually rather low to prevent Bots from firing their handhelds at ineffective range.
I usually set the AI view distance (<level>/ai/AI.ai, aiSettings.setViewDistance) to the same value as the level's fog distance in sky.con. This is fair both to human players and AI bots, but damages static artillery on too foggy levels. In the case if the range of some weapon is an annoyance on a certain level (for example, the static MGs on PHL and Omaha Beach), I decrease the max. range in the AI template of that specific weapon on this level only. But in my experience handhelds are never troublemakers in this respect. Darman, what handhelds do you mean by "firing their handhelds at ineffective range"?

Since you mentioned proper packing - I suppose this feature is implemented by the "aifixes.con" ?
Yes, the aifixes.con thing raises the cameras, among many-many other things.

Offline Michael Z Freeman

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 706
  • The Few are many;) (Used to be known as DJ Barney)
    • View Profile
    • Homepage
Re: FH2: All New 2.5 Maps [SP/COOP] DOWNLOAD
« Reply #26 on: 26-02-2016, 13:02:31 »
But is'nt this the kind of thing that FH is very good at doing ?; It ain't fair.
Most definitly, sure. But djinns point here was that defensive emplacements should be instantly manned so that they are more of a challenge for the attackers to overcome.

This is good.

Quote
My point is: When I make this happen, it will become worse because the laser guided bombers will instantly wreck everything before you as attacker even arrive at the line.

Actually, yes. What is that ? Tanks and soldiers miss all the time even at high difficulty but bomb drops are almost always perfect. Could AI pilots be made less accurate ? Anyway I understand your approach.

Quote
And just trust me about the HEs. I mean you can simply revert the change manually, but the spam is just too heavy against the attackers. MGs are there to engage infantry masses, PaKs aren't.

But FH does put HE rounds in there. I'm just a bit uncomfortable about changing too much that's there in MP. After all Coop/SP is seen as training. What happens when the player goes online and has to face all those HE shells ?

Offline djinn

  • Masterspammer
  • ****
  • Posts: 5.723
    • View Profile
Re: FH2: All New 2.5 Maps [SP/COOP] DOWNLOAD
« Reply #27 on: 26-02-2016, 13:02:05 »
Thanks for the correction, Gavrant.

@Darman,
I've also noted that German riflemen fire standard rifle grenades at T34. The damage is insignificant and focuses them away from infantry threats. This might not be a good threat assessment for them.

Offline Darman

  • FH-Betatester
  • ***
  • Posts: 226
    • View Profile
Re: FH2: All New 2.5 Maps [SP/COOP] DOWNLOAD
« Reply #28 on: 26-02-2016, 14:02:27 »
Darman, what handhelds do you mean by "firing their handhelds at ineffective range"?
I very often observe how bots start discharging everthing at their disposal right on spawning, even when the enemy is still far out in the fog or behind terrain obstacles. Firing from the hip, mostly.

Actually, yes. What is that ? Tanks and soldiers miss all the time even at high difficulty but bomb drops are almost always perfect. Could AI pilots be made less accurate ? Anyway I understand your approach.
That is not my buisiness. I doubt it however and fear the risk of them no longer using the bombs at all is higher than the chance of them dropping bombs inaccurately.

But FH does put HE rounds in there. I'm just a bit uncomfortable about changing too much that's there in MP. After all Coop/SP is seen as training. What happens when the player goes online and has to face all those HE shells ?
AI play may be training for some, but it is definitly just fun for me. Again, these changes apply ONLY for the PaK 40 Static and ONLY on a small number of defensive maps. And by default, prior to 2.5 I was totally fine with HE being there. But since Bots started to use the HE shells extremely often to great success to engage infantry in large numbers, I had to do something. Because, one last time - the Human would react to the threat, scatter, search for cover, flank the gun, call in arty, land a precision shot etc. The AI will not. They will walk slowly into their death. Again, and Again. Case closed.

I've also noted that German riflemen fire standard rifle grenades at T34. The damage is insignificant and focuses them away from infantry threats. This might not be a good threat assessment for them.
Again, not my buisiness - the general behaviour like this should be reported in the 2.5 Singleplayer thread, this has nothing to do with my work in particular.
« Last Edit: 26-02-2016, 14:02:12 by Darman »

Offline Michael Z Freeman

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 706
  • The Few are many;) (Used to be known as DJ Barney)
    • View Profile
    • Homepage
Re: FH2: All New 2.5 Maps [SP/COOP] DOWNLOAD
« Reply #29 on: 26-02-2016, 17:02:14 »
Actually, yes. What is that ? Tanks and soldiers miss all the time even at high difficulty but bomb drops are almost always perfect. Could AI pilots be made less accurate ? Anyway I understand your approach.
That is not my buisiness. I doubt it however and fear the risk of them no longer using the bombs at all is higher than the chance of them dropping bombs inaccurately.

Your're right. I'm probably crossing the line somewhere between pure FH development and your navmeshing.

Quote
But FH does put HE rounds in there. I'm just a bit uncomfortable about changing too much that's there in MP. After all Coop/SP is seen as training. What happens when the player goes online and has to face all those HE shells ?
AI play may be training for some, but it is definitly just fun for me. Again, these changes apply ONLY for the PaK 40 Static and ONLY on a small number of defensive maps. And by default, prior to 2.5 I was totally fine with HE being there. But since Bots started to use the HE shells extremely often to great success to engage infantry in large numbers, I had to do something. Because, one last time - the Human would react to the threat, scatter, search for cover, flank the gun, call in arty, land a precision shot etc. The AI will not. They will walk slowly into their death. Again, and Again. Case closed.

Yes, case closed lets move on !  :)