Author Topic: DC cinematic universe  (Read 1214 times)

Offline Alakazou

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DC cinematic universe
« on: 18-04-2015, 23:04:41 »
Yesterday, WB release the teaser trailer for Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

You can find it here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwfUnkBfdZ4

For those who doesn't know. Batman V Superman is the second movie in the DC cinematic universe or DCCU. The first one was Man of Steel (my favorite Superheros movie but still not a perfect movie).

BvS is not a Man of Steel 2, but chronologically it follow Man of Steel.

So I hope you will enjoy the teaser like I did.

Offline Kelmola

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Re: DC cinematic universe
« Reply #1 on: 19-04-2015, 02:04:09 »
Too bad they decided to scrap the excellent Batman trilogy (even though it ended a bit clumsily - why would Bruce Wayne have to "die" even if Batman would?) altogether, even though the ending would have allowed them to continue by having Joseph Gordon-Levitt's Robin/Nightwing take up the caped crusading. Alas, no. Also, what a missed opportunity: just imagine if there had been a post-credits scene in The Dark Knight Rises with Chief Gordon being handed a printout: "This just came in from Metropolis. There's a vigilante jumping off buildings wearing a leotard. Sounds like right up your alley."

Then, they had the atrocious failure called Green Lantern, but at least they could have considered it as a "sunk cost" and try to utilize it to the max - let the character's next outing be a "requel" (rebooting sequel), just that the name stays in the mind of the public (like Marvel did with The Incredible Hulk). Alas, no.

No wait, it gets even better. Two succesful TV series of some of the same characters - Arrow and Gotham - will not be a part of this shared universe. What is this I don't even...

Now, origin movies are the hardest of superhero movies. You have tons of exposition that too easily turns into a frakking Powerpoint presentation with talking heads (Thor, I'm looking at you). What does DC/WB do? They are only going to keep Supes from previous movies, and are going to reboot Batman and introduce a ton of characters with complex backgrounds, without giving them their own solo movies first. Never mind that many of the characters have been past their prime for decades and were never that well known outside the States. It's like Marvel starting Marvel Cinematic Universe directly with The Avengers immediatly after The Hulk, with even less known characters. Guardians of the Galaxy in 2004, how would that have fared?

Also, there's the problem with Golden Age superheroes (basically the entire DC catalogue) that they were the creations of a more simplistic time. They simply do not work in the 21st century, not after all that has happened and not with current mindset. Batman is an exception - namely that he has no superpowers (besides immense wealth). The rest of the crew however are a bunch of near-omnipotent aliens, demigods, and the like - how is a normal human supposed to relate to them? Marvel's superheroes were a "counterculture" reaction to all this - many of them were humans with nearly ordinary problems, the superpowers were just a metaphor on top of that, highlighting things like growing up (very relatable to kids reading the comics), civil rights movement (a minority wants to be recognized, the other half of them resort to violence and the other want a peaceful solution, and the other faction is led by a dude called X), any given minority (people ostracize you because of what you are), etc.

It will be nothing short of a miracle if WB gets this to work, and even though it might be seemingly profitable, the return on investment will no doubt leave a lot to be desired. Sure, marketing will probably push this north of the 500 megabucks mark, but it's going to be an uphill struggle.

Also, direct competition against Marvel who has a ten-year lead in a "cinematic universe" of superheroes is stupid. There's two ways WB could have tackled this and made it a differentiated, unique franchise.

The first would be to make the DCU a period tale, setting it in the 1930's, before the horrors of WW2, back when you could unironically have black and white morality tales. Of course, you could eventually advance the story into WW2 so when all else inevitably fails, you could revitalize the franchise and bring in the Nazis as the bad guy.

The way other would be to make a spiritual sequel to 1960's Batman set in the modern times, but with all the campiness turned up to 11 and this time with a twist: "Pride League of America". It's not even that much of a stretch: besides Superman written as a xenophile from the get-go (Lois Lane is not even the same species as him!), Batman is obviously a furry (dressing up as a bat and having hots for Catwoman, hello), Green Lantern already came out of the closet in the comics, and the creator of Wonder Woman - who likes to tie up naughty boys and girls and more often than not gets herself tied up too - admitted way back when that she really was just an excuse to draw approximately work-safe BDSM porn (and then came Comics Code). ;D
« Last Edit: 19-04-2015, 02:04:51 by Kelmola »

Offline Alakazou

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Re: DC cinematic universe
« Reply #2 on: 19-04-2015, 05:04:25 »
I'm really happy that you aren't one of the WB boss, because you make so many logical mistake that I will only answer a few of them.

First, the Nolan Batman are in their own universe. They were not supposed to be part from a shared universe and thanks God for that since, Bale is a good batman, but not a great batman. I mean he have the shaped of a toothpick and he is a good guy not an wild asshole.

And a post credit scene is a marvel thing the exact thing you critics lower saying that DC try to do the marvel stuff...

That's the other problem, DC is not doing the marvel thing and it's great. Marvel is nice, but DC have is own logic and way of doing thing..

About the TV show, they are tv show and if you look at the result at marvel it's not great. Not really bad either, but not great.

Two universe can (TV and movie) is the best thing DC could have done. Simply because it's allow more creative direction.

You compare the avenger with the justice league ? really ? you are serious ?

Sorry but Justice league is way better know in the world that the avenger before the Marvel shared universe. Take SpiderMan and Fantastic four as a better comparison.

Iron man before the first movie was a unknow character, but Superman, Batman, Flash, WonderWoman, Green lantern even Aquaman are known.

«They simply do not work in the 21st century, not after all that has happened and not with current mindset»

Only an assomption since Superman seem to have work in 2013. Yeah I know, many cry baby did trash the movie, (and the movie wasn't perfect) but still it work a lot and the dvd/bluray sale show it.

«It will be nothing short of a miracle if WB gets this to work»

Well I dont' know for you, but the first movie on the DCCU work better than the first 2 or 3 movie of the MCU and BvS create such a hype that during the Starwars Celebration it have stolen the show and BvS will only be release in 343 days.

At the comicon last year they only show 3 picture and it has stolen the show from marvel with all they video and trailer they had made for avenger and guardian of the galaxy.

«Also, direct competition against Marvel who has a ten-year lead in a "cinematic universe" of superheroes is stupid. There's two ways WB could have tackled this and made it a differentiated, unique franchise.»

You know the funny thing, Marvel are reacting against the information release by DC. Why do you think Captain america 3 became a kind of civil war ? Because batman and superman will fight in the next DCCU project. Why do you thing that the next avenger will be in 2 part ? because of the justice league movies. Why do you think captain marvel will be the first femal superheros ? because of Wonder Woman. If MCU change their plan, it's because they know how much DC/WB can beat them.

THe funny thing is that you blame DC to do the same as Marvel and earlier you reproach them to do the opposite...

«The first would be to make the DCU a period tale, setting it in the 1930's, before the horrors of WW2, back when you could unironically have black and white morality tales. Of course, you could eventually advance the story into WW2 so when all else inevitably fails, you could revitalize the franchise and bring in the Nazis as the bad guy.»

Where did I saw that... captain america first avengers...

Anyway, WonderWoman would probably set in the past simply because she is a demi godess.

And you other way make me think that you really don't know DC and again, I'm happy that you aren't a DC boss right now.
« Last Edit: 21-04-2015, 07:04:46 by Alakazou »

Offline Kelmola

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Re: DC cinematic universe
« Reply #3 on: 19-04-2015, 13:04:20 »
Re JL being more well known, well, when I was a kid in 80's Finland, the only DC characters that were relatively well known were Superman and Batman - and not that many read them (didn't even know Justice League was a thing back then). However, everyone and their dog read Marvel - X-Men, Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, Avengers, the works. Heck, even the GI Joe comic was more popular than DC characters. Still to this day when I go to the newsstand, Marvel dominates DC about 10-1 so can't imagine that brand recognition would have much changed here.

I still stand by my comment - introducing superheroes (or supervillains, what with Suicide Squad being the next outing in DCCU) in an ensemble movie is much more difficult to do well than introducing each in a solo movie and then bringing them together. Marvel had a "perfect storm" with Guardians of the Galaxy - how is DC/WB expecting to replicate this when they have had trouble even establishing solo characters? The first attempt to reboot Superman with Superman Returns was a failure, and then there's Green Lantern.

As for success - Man of Steel raked in some $670M. Not bad, it's about comparable to Marvel solo movies - except that Superman is the superhero and Marvel was mostly left with the secondary characters after they sold off the first-rank rights in their financial crisis at end of 1990's. The Dark Knight Rises surpassed the 1 billion mark, ahead of most Marvel movies but still behind Iron Man 3 and Avengers. From a business perspective, trashing the more succesful product - which was better received by consumers, critics, and was a better financial success - makes zero sense, especially when the ending specifically leaves the door wide open for sequels.

Also, having several separate DC universes in film and TV at the same time is simply confusing for the viewer and prevents efficient cross-promotion. Yes, it allows more freedom but in the end you're competing against yourself.

Offline Alakazou

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Re: DC cinematic universe
« Reply #4 on: 20-04-2015, 20:04:35 »
«Re JL being more well known, well, when I was a kid in 80's Finland, the only DC characters that were relatively well known were Superman and Batman - and not that many read them (didn't even know Justice League was a thing back then). However, everyone and their dog read Marvel - X-Men, Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, Avengers, the works. Heck, even the GI Joe comic was more popular than DC characters. Still to this day when I go to the newsstand, Marvel dominates DC about 10-1 so can't imagine that brand recognition would have much changed here.»

It's a well known fact that Finland in the 80's represented the world...  Seriously, arguing from your experience doesn't make a good argument in fact it's just a poor fallacy.

«I still stand by my comment - introducing superheroes (or supervillains, what with Suicide Squad being the next outing in DCCU) in an ensemble movie is much more difficult to do well than introducing each in a solo movie and then bringing them together. Marvel had a "perfect storm" with Guardians of the Galaxy - how is DC/WB expecting to replicate this when they have had trouble even establishing solo characters? The first attempt to reboot Superman with Superman Returns was a failure, and then there's Green Lantern.»

It's like you were saying that the only way to make a scifi movie is like starwars or startrek did it. Marvel have is own way of doing thing and it's great, but DC doesn't need to try marvel style. In fact, they already try it with Green Lantern and it's wasn't great.

If you take each solo movie in Marvel Universe, you will se many other character in it. Each film have as many as character as BvS will have. The only difference is that BvS will introduce more, well known, character. Take Aquaman vs Jane Foster who's the most popular  and know by the population ? it's Aquaman.

Superman Return is not a reboot it's in the continuity of the old superman and it wasn't really a failure, the movie made 391 millions dollars in 2006 and it's was appreciate by the critics.

The last superman was, yeah, divisive simply because it made people who doesn't know superman squeak. How many time I heard people saying: superman don't kill.... hum yeah he kill, many trough is history.

Anyway the movie was profitable.


«As for success - Man of Steel raked in some $670M. Not bad, it's about comparable to Marvel solo movies - except that Superman is the superhero and Marvel was mostly left with the secondary characters after they sold off the first-rank rights in their financial crisis at end of 1990's. The Dark Knight Rises surpassed the 1 billion mark, ahead of most Marvel movies but still behind Iron Man 3 and Avengers. From a business perspective, trashing the more succesful product - which was better received by consumers, critics, and was a better financial success - makes zero sense, especially when the ending specifically leaves the door wide open for sequels.»

All the pre avenger movie solo didn't make more than 400 millions so, Man of Steel, as the first DCCU movie make more than Iron man 1 and Hukl those first MCU movie. You need to compare apple with apple. For exemple, Justice league movie with avengers movie, not batman by Nolan who isn't in the DCCU. The ending didn't opean the door for a sequels, in fact Nolan did it only to say: here, even if batman is dead (not bruce wayne) gotham will have a hero to protect them. But the goal have nothing to do with a sequel.

«Also, having several separate DC universes in film and TV at the same time is simply confusing for the viewer and prevents efficient cross-promotion. Yes, it allows more freedom but in the end you're competing against yourself.»

Ha the viewer are stupid now, because many tv show aren't connected to a movie from a cinematic universe.

And you are using assomption to say they are competing against themself. A lot a people who will go watch BvS, Justice League or the flash movie doesn't care about the TV show.  Movie make more view and money than a Tv Show.

Offline Zoologic

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Re: DC cinematic universe
« Reply #5 on: 24-04-2015, 07:04:02 »
Although I hate the new DC and like the way Marvel deliver their new image, I agree with Alakazou's points.

DC is always the mainstay of mainstream comic book superhero paragon. Marvel at that time was the geeky specialists, niche, almost bankrupt. It only went mainstream not long ago, when X-Men and Spider-Man went on big screen.

Offline Alakazou

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Re: DC cinematic universe
« Reply #6 on: 25-04-2015, 07:04:03 »


It's the new Joker play by Jared Leto

Offline Alakazou

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Re: DC cinematic universe
« Reply #7 on: 12-07-2015, 02:07:14 »
The new Batman V Superman is here:

It was release earlier today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WWzgGyAH6Y

Offline Captain Pyjama Shark

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Re: DC cinematic universe
« Reply #8 on: 12-07-2015, 04:07:07 »
Will the film be 15 seconds long because Superman is invulnerable, can fly, and can shoot lasers out of his eyes?

Offline Alakazou

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Re: DC cinematic universe
« Reply #9 on: 12-07-2015, 23:07:18 »
Many time in the comic Batman and Superman fight each other and the only reason why Batman win and he is not kill is simply because he know to much that Superman is to good to use his full potential against him.

So yeah Superman can kill the Goddamn Batman in a blink of an eye, but Superman being superman will not do that.

So the movie will be much longer than 15 seconds.

And in this iteration Superman have god like power, but he is not invulnerable.

Offline Alakazou

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Re: DC cinematic universe
« Reply #10 on: 14-07-2015, 01:07:23 »
Suicide Squad will be the third movie in the DCCU or DCEU. It will be a the dirty dozen but with some supervilain DC.

Jared Leto will be Joker and here the trailer that was released today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLLQK9la6Go

Offline Alakazou

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Re: DC cinematic universe
« Reply #11 on: 20-01-2016, 07:01:32 »

Offline Wilhelm

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Re: DC cinematic universe
« Reply #12 on: 31-07-2016, 19:07:32 »
Just watched the Comic-Con Wonder Woman trailer.  Takes place during WW1, which is pretty sweet!  :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lGoQhFb4NM

Offline PanzerKnacker

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Re: DC cinematic universe
« Reply #13 on: 31-07-2016, 22:07:47 »
Looks like utter shite. Saves german pilot (note the Pour le Merite), falls in love with him, proceeds to kill countless of "bad germans". Fuck yeah Hollywood. What is this.
« Last Edit: 31-07-2016, 22:07:05 by PanzerKnacker »
He was not wrong. Amateurs talk tactics, pros talk logistics.

Offline Kelmola

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Re: DC cinematic universe
« Reply #14 on: 01-08-2016, 00:08:40 »
It's not just Hollywood, mind you - Good German turning against the Bad Germans is a long-running trope in the Commando comics (Korkeajännitys for us Finns).

Not that any of those would make good a movie either.