Author Topic: FH2, FH3, 4, 5...? & The Battle for Money (stage1)  (Read 2995 times)

Offline storedyr

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”Tides of Numenera” banked

$4,188,927

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/torment-tides-of-numenera


”Wasteland 2” banked

$2,933,252

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/wasteland-2


”Skull girls” banked

$828,768

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/keep-skullgirls-growing


”Is that you John Wayne? is this me.. ?”
”Who the f said that”



BUT HOW DO FORGOTTEN SOLDIERS CONQUER PILES OF GOLD?


Knowledge, cordinated teamwork, and a well thought-out plan...
Coldly executed!



But before we can start working on a crowdfunding presentation we need our boot camp basics to be loud and clear...


Who owns all the creative work put into FH2?

Could FH run as a ”collective corporation”?

Is there currently any serious plans on the table or current work going on FH3 in the community?

Can we hire the right people to help us make it happen?


THE BATTLE FOR MONEY - STAGE 2

Making a realistic money structure.

There are 2 battlefields worth invading. Kickstarter and Indiegogo.
Kickstarter is a few times bigger than Indiegogo in users and volume.

Kickstarter only allow projects to their site that registred out of the US or UK.
Indiegogo works globally.

Kickstarter also differntiates from Indigogo by having a pledged goal thats fixed.
It means that if we dont reach our goal (eg $900,000) and recieved only $800.000 then we would recieve 0$.. where on Indiegogo we would receive the all the funds even if our goal isnt reached.

The money structure

Look at the ”Skull girls” page at Indie...
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/keep-skullgirls-growing
One page down you see the orange/green graphic showing their strecthed goals from $150.000 to $800.000.

SO SOLDIERS IN THE REAR! Maintaining and developing our wonderful gear!

CONSIDER AND PLAN.
What do we need to make what we want?


THE BATTLE FOR MONEY - STAGE 3

The crowfunding presentation (brainstorm).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAwd6xDUYxc&index=2&list=PLT2yWZD0aQDVeZDjMVRKV--p2JcqNuBDa

A good way is always to let the passion shine through :) and showcase some awesome gameplay. 
We also need to tell the story of FH in a short and cool way.
How far is Pacific and Russian theater from going live?

Should we tell the story of EA back from bf1942.. our current bf2 version...  and bf3 and bf4 not being modable...
What happened to bf1943 that was released on ps3..
In addition to having the best sales ever on the first day it was released, Battlefield 1943 went on to become the fastest selling download-only game after the first week..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlefield_1943

In addition to that EA also started selling 1943 preorder for PC. After about a year the release was cancelled.
I wonder how many pre-order sales that was claimed back..
Why do EA just want us to play modern war now?...
even though they know that a new ww2 fps game is one the most anticipated games ever?
 

But for now.. and before I want to get more detailed about my thought about this..
I just really want to hear from you and hear your thoughts on this and on how we can move forward.


I don't have to tell you the story.
You all know it.
Only two kinds of people are gonna stay on this beach:
those that are already dead and those that are gonna die.
Now get off your butts.
You guys are the Forgotten Hope.



Thanks for the greatest historical action game ever!

Offline LuckyOne

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Re: FH2, FH3, 4, 5...? & The Battle for Money (stage1)
« Reply #1 on: 09-09-2014, 16:09:21 »
^ Cool story bro.

This has been discussed numerous times. The conclusion is always that making a mod in some spare time as a "weekend warrior" is vastly different from making a full blown game. Now I don't know what the devs thoughts are on this, but most of them have got older, have wife and kids and need to do "serious" jobs in order to keep their families happy, not go around and waste their time and money on pursuing kinda expensive hobbies (still cheaper than buying a Ferrari, though :P).

Besides, for the success of a crowdfunding campaign, you need something to show first. While I do appreciate all the hard work the devs have done in the past, I'm not sure other people who haven't played FH would appreciate it too. They need serious evidence, a tech demo or similar would be best. And that takes... you guessed it, money AND time. And some serious dedication. However there are younger teams springing up, Festung Europa and Traction Wars to name a few. They might not agree completely with the spirit of FH, but they will try to carry the WWII games banner forward. In the meantime, we'll enjoy a mature and excellent mod, that is largely bug free and has decent graphics even today.
This sentence is intentionally left unfinished...

Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: FH2, FH3, 4, 5...? & The Battle for Money (stage1)
« Reply #2 on: 09-09-2014, 22:09:42 »
We would never ask for your money without having at least a prototype to show.

Offline NTH

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Re: FH2, FH3, 4, 5...? & The Battle for Money (stage1)
« Reply #3 on: 09-09-2014, 23:09:43 »
You know not even a bad idea and well presented too. If there ever was a mod I think has the right balance between fun and authenticity it is FH. But then again I am already a fan.

That are a few examples of Mod's becoming full blown games or integrated in a game, RO and Desert Combat for example, but they always had the backing of the publisher or original game developer.  So having an available game engine that can do a combined forces game play like FH2 with support of the creator will be a challenge to say the least.


Milton Gault roared, "Roffey, I know bloody well that Jerry knows we are here but you don't need to advertise the fact!"
(From: First in the Field, Gault of the Patricias by Jeffery Williams, page 72.)

Offline TASSER

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Re: FH2, FH3, 4, 5...? & The Battle for Money (stage1)
« Reply #4 on: 10-09-2014, 00:09:35 »
Very well thought out and detailed post. (I especially like the "quote" at the bottom of the post!) Welcome to the forums storedyr! :)

Similar to what LuckyOne said, the Devs work on Forgotten Hope as a hobby and as a way to hone their modding/game development skills. They have been averse to the notion of making FH a paid game or accepting donations in the past.

This is honestly a big part of the culture and the FH experience. The driving force behind what has made this mod so phenomenal is the pure, unadulterated passion of the Devs to make the game great, because that's the way it should be. They're trying to make WWII come alive in a realistic, yet playable and fun game. The key is that passion, as opposed to the notion of financial gain.

"Just read about the Hawker Hardy. What a cool and not very well known plane. It would be sweet to model that and bring it in game."

vs.

"Alright time to crunch out another three vehicle models to hit the quota for the next release. Gotta keep the shareholders happy."

(I apologize if any of my statements are incorrect. I certainly don't want to put words in the mouths of the Devs. Just reiterating the feelings I've observed in the past. I'll be happy to edit if anything is misleading or false.)

That being said, from the hours upon hours upon I've spent playing the game, It would be an honor to financially help out the guys who made it. And I would 100% donate to a kickstarter campaign and purchase a new iteration of Forgotten Hope. :)
BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!
BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! –ping       <3

Offline LuckyOne

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Re: FH2, FH3, 4, 5...? & The Battle for Money (stage1)
« Reply #5 on: 10-09-2014, 14:09:48 »
We all would, but the question is, even if we get all the regular (and past) fans, which is like 10000 people at most to give 50 $ each, that's still just 500 000 $, which is hardly the cash needed to make a decent, next gen FH3 with combined arms. Just look at the cash Wargaming spends, and their game features just one kind of vehicles in fairly small spaces. To research and redo all FH has to offer in a historically accurate way would take a lot of time, and many skilled people.
This sentence is intentionally left unfinished...

Offline storedyr

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Re: FH2, FH3, 4, 5...? & The Battle for Money (stage1)
« Reply #6 on: 14-09-2014, 18:09:51 »
Dear LuckyOne, Ts4EVER, NTH, and TASSER

Awake soldiers, thanks for your responsive enlightment. Your knowledge and experience is priceless.
I have been reflecting on your input and some might say it has led me to questionable assumptions.. :)

  • No one really owns the ”Forgotten Hope brand” and the creative work that already exits?
    Map-layouts,  game-play, storytelling etc.
  • Forgotten Hope can be ported to a new engine by anyone?
    Like a ”future branch” of this series because the mod is already opensource?

Lets not hope someone have already patented history so we still can remake ww2 battles and put them into a historical actions games..

The real value of FH2 besides the current creators, admins and players...
Is the cleverly designed and thoroughly tested maps, weapons, vehicles, gameplay and ww2 knowledge.

Yes FH2 is also the good old guys who are the ones who started this and now have wife and kids... 
But do we want our kids to grow up in a world were kids only can play bloated computer games controlled by greedy shareholders?

Are we silently submitting into a reality where only big game corporations rule and dominate our world, and all they focus on is selling continuous content updates bundled with in-game purchasing, commercial product placement and maybe even designed to bring you in a state of mind that makes you consider neurotic medication?


THE BATTLEGROUND PERSPECTIVE, FACTS & ANALYSYS

The Battlefield series is an award-winning series that began with Battlefield 1942.
Bf1942 sold 2.4 million copies from 2002 until 2006.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_games

Most of these players are presumably still alive today.
Here is an interesting thread on the 2012 free release:
http://team-simple.org/forum/viewtopic.php?id=695&p=1

I'm quite a geek, a busy gamer, and a curious googler.. but nonetheless it was almost by coincidence I discovered fh2 in late 2013 and became aware of ”mod communities” all in relation to the free release of bf1942. I'm just saying that over the years since about 2004 I have from time to time been looking online for a new ww2 game based on team-based infantry and vehicle warfare ... fh2 is like finding a needle in a haystack.. I'm still shocked that I overlooked fh1 and fh2 for so many years while playing 1942.

The Battlefield series has sold over 17 million copies as of 2008 and has served more than 50 million players worldwide as of 2012.
http://battlefield.wikia.com/wiki/Battlefield_series

The potential crowd base is bigger than we can imagine.
In a well planned crowd-funding campaign an essential strategy is to spread the word through external channels such as game magazines, game blogs, relevant forums, social media and so on.
There is alot of natural interest in new projects, especially if it is groundbreaking and even provoking.
 
An important key for being successful in crowd-funding is being loud and clear about who we are, our core values and defining a realistic stretched goal strategy.   

The Forgotten Hope label.
The basics of the game is large ww2 online multiplayer battles, with focus on vehicle warfare, teamwork and team-based infantry combat.

Currently Forgotten Hope 2 is the only ”realistic” ww2 multiplayer game today where one hundred mad maniacs is stuffed with gear and can battle, command, bike, drive, fly, tank, talk, chat, sail.. run, jump and die, right?

Core values

  • We don't operate like a corporation but like a foundation.
  • We don't want to profit from anyone but..
    we need descent money to pay for skilled and passionate workers to make and maintain a quality game.
  • We are fully transparent about our economy.
  • If donations are enough then it is free.
    If donations are not enough to maintain a proper level of quality then:
    You can play for free up to 10 hours per month.
    A one year subscription can never be more than 5-20 dollars per year.
    (Whatever is minimum to maintain a top quality game where tuning and fixing happens fast).

The Stretched goal strategy

Estimates are approximately to clarify the examples.
Examples are also just examples and would most likely need to adjusted as more knowledge is brought to the table.

$10.000
Forgotten Hope 2 -all theaters.
Finishing Pacific and Russian maps for FH2.
Making all maps work 16, 32 and +64 versions.

$20.000
Forgotten Hope 2 -all theaters. + new server pack for better perfomance.
Finishing Pacific and Russian maps for FH2.
Making all maps work 16, 32 and +64 versions.

$2.000.000
Forgotten Hope 3 for PC.
Forgotten Hope 2 ported into a new engine with better and destructable graphics.
New speak and sounds system for teamwork based play.
Cry engine, unreal... alternatives?

$4.000.000
Forgotten Hope 3 cross platform for ps4 and xbox.

$8.000.000
The forgotten hope engine?


THE NEXT STEP

Who can we hire to port fh2 into a new engine?
We need to hire a team of skilled devs that also are passionate about ww2.   
We need to find these people before we can launch a crowd-funding campaign.
I would like us to begin scouting for these people.

But the question is... do this idea have backup from our community?

Do you see the possibilities of taking the work already done and taking it to another level?



"Before Alamein, we had no victories. After Alamein, we had no defeats."

Offline LuckyOne

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Re: FH2, FH3, 4, 5...? & The Battle for Money (stage1)
« Reply #7 on: 14-09-2014, 19:09:47 »
Ah, if it only were that simple.
First, there's legal issues. Technically, EA/Dice still owns the rights for BF2/Refractor, so getting money from "selling" the product (even if it's really donating) is still kind of a gray area. Maybe some legal experts could enlighten us.

Second, I don't think you fully understand just how much work goes into making a immersive, historically accurate combined arms 3D shooter. There's even no modern decent engine currently that can support it out of the box (barring closed source FB and WT ones). Not to mention the workflow needs to be established, devs would need to educate themselves how to work with the new engine, there would need to be an army of coders to tweak/code all the stuff that would need to be in...

The main issue is not even the money (although there would certainly need to be plenty of that if the plan is to work full time) but the sheer time that takes to make something like that a reality. Check out Traction Wars. That's on CryEngine, in development for I don't know how many years already, switched CryEngine versions multiple times, and the first release is planned to include only Overlord, very limited amount of vehicles (or even no vehicles) and just two armies. Granted, all of that is done in free time, with very limited resources, but even with experienced huge teams (DICE studio counts over 200 people in total) it still takes a few years to flesh out a living, working game of this magnitude.

I'm not saying it can't be done. But people really need to be all in for it if they are to undertake such a project. And of course, there's always a downside. When you involve money and shareholders (even if they are crowdfunders), then you take on a certain responsibility, you have to plan for the timeschedule (e. g. no more "when it's done"), you have to work really hard to churn out the stuff you promised on time. And then the quality suffers, the passion is lost, people work just because they have to, and you lose the magic. I don't want that to happen to FH2.
« Last Edit: 14-09-2014, 19:09:57 by LuckyOne »
This sentence is intentionally left unfinished...

Offline Beatrix[NL]

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Re: FH2, FH3, 4, 5...? & The Battle for Money (stage1)
« Reply #8 on: 21-10-2014, 09:10:22 »
I share TS's enthousiasm for an upgraded version of FH, and I think going (semi)commercial is the way to go.

A relatively quick roadmap
What would be more realistic however is a port to the new UE4. This is proven, affordable (19 EUR p/m) technology with excellent netcode and is relatively easy to use. I mean port in the sense that all existing assets could be ported to this engine with a first emphasis on the game play mechanics themselves. With UE's beautiful shaders/lighting and the high quality of the existing FH2 assets, this would mean that most, if not all focus can be put on the programming of the gameplay in order to get a public beta out asap. Level Design in UE4 is a breeze, especially with a full library of existing statics that the mod already has. Of course later on the existing assets can be replaced with new upgraded assets.

In terms of ownership/compensation:
One way to go about this is to compensate current and former developers based on their contributions. The current team would therefore effectively use this content based on a license which could be a % of revenue up untill a certain point e.g. 2000 EUR per model after which the model can be used without any further charges (ownership remains with former dev), until new assets are created.

Why and how to sell the game:
Provide a complete package (including servers, VOIP, auto updates etc.) and charge players on a monthly basis, e.g. 10 EUR per month. I truly believe this is the way to go as it allows the developers to spend time on the project. I get the whole ' passion'  thing, but come on. People should be paid for their work, no matter what; of course the current devs get a lot of pleasure from the fact that thousands of players enjoy their game, yet in the real world time costs money. This would possibly also attact former devs who could not afford to spend so much time on the project anymore due to real life obligations, families etc., AND possibly a whole bunch of new devs!

Ownership
It seems that many devs are located in Europe (Germany?) and as such a GmbH (company) could be set up to act as a legal person. All devs get a certain percentage of the revenue, based on the amount of work they put in every month. With a 10 EUR p/m price tag, the existing playerbase alone would amount to about 10000 EUR in revenue per month, which divided over 27 currently active devs amounts to 370 EUR per month, per dev. Of course some people put in more work than others, but this type of compensation at least partially justifies the time spent. Of course part of this revenue goes to server space, marketing and former devs, yet realistically and especially when combined with sponsorships, this type of business model could ensure a stable development period for many years to come.

Kickstarter won't be necessary, keep it modular
A kickstarter would be nice, but also forms a huge distraction. A huge amount of money up front is not necessary as long as a small core team of (mainly) programmers is willing to port the content to the new engine. As soon as the basic gameplay is implemented (with existing assets), people can start to subscribe (monthly payments) to get the latest (beta) releases.

This approach limits the risks (no up front investments) and allows for a high pay-off; financially, but most importantly in terms of quality and tuture development of the project itself!






Offline Airshark79

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Re: FH2, FH3, 4, 5...? & The Battle for Money (stage1)
« Reply #9 on: 21-10-2014, 09:10:20 »
Realistic. I agree with making of a proof of concept with UE4. It opens up possibilities and brings a chance to explore a monetised concept, while bringing in attention by the "UE4 WW2 shooter" label. And if the engine is good enough to fix the gunplay issues this time FH3 may actually keep the newcomers, as otherwise has been proven for FH2.

Offline DannyNickelov

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Re: FH2, FH3, 4, 5...? & The Battle for Money (stage1)
« Reply #10 on: 22-11-2014, 02:11:59 »
Realistic. I agree with making of a proof of concept with UE4. It opens up possibilities and brings a chance to explore a monetised concept, while bringing in attention by the "UE4 WW2 shooter" label. And if the engine is good enough to fix the gunplay issues this time FH3 may actually keep the newcomers, as otherwise has been proven for FH2.

I saw and see some WWII ''realism'' games being created with the CryEngine, 1 of them (Festung Europa) now moved to the Unreal 4 engine, wich people dont like because of Red Orchestra 2 (wich i think is a good game)

Offline Leopardi

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Re: FH2, FH3, 4, 5...? & The Battle for Money (stage1)
« Reply #11 on: 22-11-2014, 04:11:26 »
Realistic. I agree with making of a proof of concept with UE4. It opens up possibilities and brings a chance to explore a monetised concept, while bringing in attention by the "UE4 WW2 shooter" label. And if the engine is good enough to fix the gunplay issues this time FH3 may actually keep the newcomers, as otherwise has been proven for FH2.

I saw and see some WWII ''realism'' games being created with the CryEngine, 1 of them (Festung Europa) now moved to the Unreal 4 engine, wich people dont like because of Red Orchestra 2 (wich i think is a good game)
RO2 is on 9 years old Unreal 3 engine.

Offline Airshark79

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Re: FH2, FH3, 4, 5...? & The Battle for Money (stage1)
« Reply #12 on: 21-12-2014, 11:12:47 »
What is the deal with festung europa? I don't understand why people dislike it. The engine itself?

Offline Airshark79

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Re: FH2, FH3, 4, 5...? & The Battle for Money (stage1)
« Reply #13 on: 12-01-2015, 23:01:07 »
Now that fh2 is even harder to reach as mainstream online platforms dropped BF2 what is the general approach against moving on to more powerful engines, is it something being discussed for after the eastern front's release?

Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: FH2, FH3, 4, 5...? & The Battle for Money (stage1)
« Reply #14 on: 12-01-2015, 23:01:25 »
As we said on the stream, plans are being made and engines are being tried out. We will inform people once there is something to report.