Author Topic: Scotland Referendum  (Read 2588 times)

Offline Zoologic

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Scotland Referendum
« on: 02-09-2014, 10:09:56 »
This is an issue that even BBC itself cannot stay neutral. It has been repeatedly saying that the public says "no." But on the recent debate between Salmond and Darling, the results are overwhelmingly on "Yes" favour.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-28783688

They also say that the French don't care. The historic ties "Auld Alliance" doesn't say much as BBC reported that the French wanted "strong UK" to counter the "dominant Germany." Really? Crimea voted yes to break from Ukraine, and so the rest of the Eastern Ukraine, they rebelled. When Yugoslavia weakened, everybody break off immediately. Even until today, whenever there is a chance to be independent, they break off immediately. Let's say, if Catalonia is given the chance, Walloonia, etc etc etc.

So, does the rest of the world really care? Well, I am very sad if the Union break apart. I like the UK, but Scottish people is the friendliest bunch, just like the Irish people. My English teachers are mostly Scots. Whatever happened there, I've always support the Scottish people, but to see the UK breaking apart also breaks my heart. Yes, the English are getting more and more Euro-skeptic, right-leaning, and out of touch with the other "Kingdoms." If the poll should result in anything besides the Scotland's decision, it is to knock some sense into London and that Anglo-Saxon stubbornness about its policy.

Do you guys have any opinion on Scotland's freeeeedom?

Offline th_battleaxe

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Re: Scotland Referendum
« Reply #1 on: 02-09-2014, 11:09:05 »
I think it's an interesting case. I watched a part of the debate last week and it became clear to me that a part of the English political establishment is scared shitless with the idea of Scotland becoming independant. Mr. Darling, in a blatant case of pots and kettles, was trying to convince everyone in the hall that Salmond was scaremongering. He kept attacking Salmond with the currency question in order to make himself look stronger than he was.

If anything, this vote should headbutt some sense back into the English politicians, and especially the Blairistas, as they seem the most opposed to the idea.

On a sidenote, Wallonia would never go independent, even if their lives depended on it. Ten billion euros per year is a surprisingly good argument to stick together.
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Offline Eat Uranium

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Re: Scotland Referendum
« Reply #2 on: 02-09-2014, 11:09:10 »
I really don't care to be honest.  If I could vote I probably wouldn't.

Do I think Scotland can go it alone?  Yes.  Do I think that Scotland will be as successful alone as it is now?  No.

Offline Zoologic

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Re: Scotland Referendum
« Reply #3 on: 02-09-2014, 12:09:39 »
I think it's an interesting case. I watched a part of the debate last week and it became clear to me that a part of the English political establishment is scared shitless with the idea of Scotland becoming independant. Mr. Darling, in a blatant case of pots and kettles, was trying to convince everyone in the hall that Salmond was scaremongering. He kept attacking Salmond with the currency question in order to make himself look stronger than he was.

They don't want them to use Pound... okay, that's consistent, considering their attitude towards the Euro. But can't they address other problems or something they could offer for the Scots besides threats?

Quote
If anything, this vote should headbutt some sense back into the English politicians, and especially the Blairistas, as they seem the most opposed to the idea.

Wasn't it the Tories that were the Scot's main problems? The lists in "Yes" side showed things like welfare, nuclear programme, and attitude towards the Euro. This is beside the control that the London maintains over the Scotland government.

It is just the Blairistas' incompetence and arrogance during the whole "No" campaign.

Quote
On a sidenote, Wallonia would never go independent, even if their lives depended on it. Ten billion euros per year is a surprisingly good argument to stick together.
Do I think Scotland can go it alone?  Yes.  Do I think that Scotland will be as successful alone as it is now?  No.

Sure, this may be a bluff from the Scots, but if they really think of they could become independent and think about taking all the profits from the North Sea oil, money they make from tax, etc, etc they are gravely mistaken. There are too many cases of this economic independence illusion by silly little newly independent European countries (except those under clear oppressions like genocide and wars).

So, the London cut you from the benefits, and you think they are taking away your rights, while you are actually depending on them reaching deeper to their other income sources. They never learn how expensive and painful it is to maintain a global network of rep. offices to trade their oils and how complex the bureaucracy in many countries are to successfully establish relationship with them. The only way out is to become slave for the other worst creditor: China. You wouldn't trade-off even the hawkish-est American bureaucrats for them.

If any, the Scots independence should be focused on politics and social reasons. Other reasons are completely made-up bollocks, especially economics.

Offline Butcher

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Re: Scotland Referendum
« Reply #4 on: 02-09-2014, 12:09:27 »
Yes, the English are getting more and more Euro-skeptic. If the poll should result in anything besides the Scotland's decision, it is to knock some sense into London and that Anglo-Saxon stubbornness about its policy.
That´s pretty much what I think. England has always been the spoiled child in the EU. The most recent incident I can remember is Cameron not wanting Juncker as President of the European Commission, despite him being elected by the people and threatening to leave the Union (once again). The English can of course do what they want, but don´t let them drag down Scotland with them.
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Offline Dukat

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Re: Scotland Referendum
« Reply #5 on: 02-09-2014, 13:09:21 »
I don't consider territorial fragmentation any good. Especially as a german. Germany suffered in many ways from that for centuries.

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Offline Hjaldrgud

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Re: Scotland Referendum
« Reply #6 on: 02-09-2014, 14:09:55 »
I hope Scotland becomes independent and wish them the best of luck in the future!

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Offline Zoologic

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Re: Scotland Referendum
« Reply #7 on: 03-09-2014, 13:09:15 »
If they become independent, I hope they don't take that "heartache route" and maintains its special ties with UK and the rest of its old friends.

Many countries and its people took that stubborn idiotic "prideful" nonsense and delve into their own shithole after getting their freedom. They swept away old ties and policies from previous governments, never make amends with the past, which not all are bad. That will create another regional financial sinkhole and social problems for the neighbours.

Offline Ivancic1941

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Re: Scotland Referendum
« Reply #8 on: 03-09-2014, 14:09:10 »
I wish Scotland become independet!!!!!!!!!!
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Offline Born2Kill 007

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Re: Scotland Referendum
« Reply #9 on: 03-09-2014, 14:09:57 »
I think it's best for Scotland that they don't become independent, simply because the won't be able to get in the EU. All the members will have to accept the enter request, and Spain will refuse to recognise Scotland as an independent state, fearing Catalonia will try the same.
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Offline Slayer

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Re: Scotland Referendum
« Reply #10 on: 03-09-2014, 15:09:31 »
I don't consider territorial fragmentation any good.
Me neither, gaining independence and then trying to join a union (like the EU) also seems a bit pointless.

Offline LuckyOne

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Re: Scotland Referendum
« Reply #11 on: 03-09-2014, 17:09:21 »
Oh they'll all be like:


But then they'll realize freedom is just as (if not more) expensive than what they have already been paying, so they'll just use it to blackmail England in giving them more autonomy.
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Offline Kelmola

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Re: Scotland Referendum
« Reply #12 on: 03-09-2014, 18:09:51 »
I don't consider territorial fragmentation any good.
Me neither, gaining independence and then trying to join a union (like the EU) also seems a bit pointless.
Not from their point of view, if they want to stay as part of the EU and the UK would pull out of the union. Also, the UK will probably join the Eurozone around the same time the US adopts the metric system, cows come home, and hell freezes over, so that's another reason.

EDIT: Most "reasonable" way would be that if the yes-votes win the referendum, they make the separation conditional on the UK's EU membership. Way to encourage the rest of the kingdom choose yes in that referendum.
« Last Edit: 03-09-2014, 18:09:47 by Kelmola »

Offline Zoologic

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Re: Scotland Referendum
« Reply #13 on: 04-09-2014, 08:09:48 »
BBC articles on Scotland social issues:
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29011507

Quote

I left Scotland nearly 30 years ago to pursue (like many young Scots had to) a career first in London and then abroad.

Many of my old friends from the 1980s were drawn into the Labour fold by the swiftness and, as they saw it, unnecessary brutality, of the economic and social changes that were sweeping Britain, and Scotland in particular.

Now that I have come back, I find many of them declaring themselves as supporters of independence. For some of them it has been a reluctant and painful conversion.

I asked one, an old friend I hadn’t seen for at least 10 years, why he’d be voting yes. “I changed my mind quite a while ago. For me it’s about the way Britain has gone - the extremes of wealth and poverty that people down south seem comfortable with, the dominance of the privately educated people in all walks of life, the rise of UKIP, the talk of leaving the EU and a Labour Party that I don’t really recognise any more”.

He is not alone. Social attitudes surveys reveal that Scottish public opinion, on any given question, is not very different to opinion elsewhere in the UK. The Scots do not seem to be more left-wing, issue-by-issue, than anyone else - at least not by very much.

Why, then, do the Scots vote so differently? Why is it that the central Edinburgh constituency that I live in returns a Labour MP dependably at every general election? When I moved here in the 1970s and 80s, it was a Tory seat and Edinburgh was mostly a Tory city.

The yes-supporting journalist and writer George Kerevan has himself moved from the British left to the independence camp.

The need for independence as he sees it is “based on the need to put into practice traditional Scottish views on morality inherited from the Reformation and codified by the Scottish Enlightenment… This is a moral philosophy that definitely encourages private endeavour rather than state paternalism, but it also anchors private morality in a social context".

In other words, private endeavour and reward should be connected in some way to the greater public good.

For nationalist intellectuals who have, in the course of their lifetimes moved to the independence camp, what is happening in Scotland is, in part, a Presbyterian revolt against what they perceive as the growing inequality of British society - the apparent retreat from the ideals of social mobility, from the social justice agenda that characterised post-war Britain from the 40s to the 80s.

BBC might be quite a communist tool for some time, and a rambling fascist at times, but it makes them neutral. And having known some Scottish throughout my life. I can relate to this point of view. Real Scots I know of are not those silly caricatures like Groundskeeper Willie or that eccentric Scotty of USS Enterprise or Uncle Scrooge McDuck.

What most young Scots like in my mind? A fashionably-bearded man with baby face, James McAvoy-like charm, adventurous, with new-age leftist view.

Yet, this is how Nigel Farage of UKIP view it (basically, Slayer's opinion):
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farage/10821290/Nigel-Farage-Brilliant-Alex-Salmond-is-Scotlands-best-political-operator.html

So, Scotland wants to break away from the increasingly xenophobic UK, growing chav/chavette culture due to increasing economic inequality, indulge itself in day-dreaming of their glorious past empire, thus they think that they don't need EU that much. Now, they question the leftness nature of the Scottish Independence.

For Scotland, this is something other than just economic question.

Clearly, this is very different from that Balkan shitstorm or Catalonian struggle. There is no such thing as our language or common suffering, identity, and such. As Scotland recently never really oppressed by the English like those other independence nut cases.
« Last Edit: 04-09-2014, 08:09:19 by Zoologic »

Offline Battlefieldfan45 (CroPanzer)

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Re: Scotland Referendum
« Reply #14 on: 04-09-2014, 13:09:44 »
You have to keep in mind that Scotland throught it's common history with England and the UK kept sovereignty in some aspect, it's not the same if a unitary state to breaks up or a federation/real union.

That beaing said, the Soveregnty of the Scottish people is in their hands and they can do whatever they want with it:
I don't consider territorial fragmentation any good.
Me neither, gaining independence and then trying to join a union (like the EU) also seems a bit pointless.

It's not pointless.
You need to look at the big picture, now the Scottish policy towards EU is mainly governed by the UK, they can't do as much on the scene with the UK giving oredrs. Of course, it's not that harsh as I may have made it sound but the UK has certanly put some restraints on the Scottish international behaviour.

Breaking up from the UK will bring independence for the Scotts. That's great for them, they can govern themselves and economise with their own resources as they wish.
Applying and joining the EU will make Scotland a sovereign nation, standing AS AN EQUALL beside the UK and the rest of the nations.
That means even when the UK wants something to pass in the EU parliament, the Scotts could block that (Funny, isn't it?  ;D )

Some of this story is familiar to me as I'm from Croatia, Yugoslavia broke down and 10-15 years later, we're joining EU, relinquishing some parts of our sovereignty to the EU but that doesn't make us as weak as we were 20-30 years ago. Back then we were a mere federal state in a socialist federation, today a modern, sovereign nation, actually having an impact on the stuff happening on the Continent.

You also mentioned that Spain might veto Scotland?
That's wrong because there are some gread differences from those 2 situations.
Scotland joined freely with England (at least, their parliament voted for the merging) so, in theory, they can break that relation when ever they want.
Catalonia and Baskia (I might've misspelled that, pardon me) are a part of a unitary state, so a quick definition follows (in my own oppinion):
A unitary state is a state in which power is derived from above, so it can only be given temporary to lower organisations but it DOES NOT emanate from them.

So the situation is quite different and Spain might aswell accept Scotland, only to have an aditional leverage against the UK.

 
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