Author Topic: aa gun precision and damage  (Read 1477 times)

Offline Martinlegend

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aa gun precision and damage
« on: 20-06-2014, 16:06:29 »
the flakvierling
fire is very accurate which make it not Very effective against planes that flying right on your Position
damage is ok but the accurance could be lower to make it better against planes that attack the aa directily

and even if you see the enemy plane (which is alo difficult because of the protection shields+ the optics)
there are only 2-3 seconds left to aim on it and the low spread of the projectiles makes it even more dificult to aim a plane that only Shows you his front

planes that are flying by are easy targets but
if there is a 1on1 duel between the flakvierling and the plane the plane allways wins
and even the plane will get shot down the wreck still crashes into the aa gun and kills it
(only the 88 has a chance to win if the first shot hits )

the american quad 50 have the right bullet spread but the damage is much too low
the Chance to hit and kill the Pilot is much bigger than destroying the plane itself (and only if the plane is flying away)

Offline VonMudra

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Re: aa gun precision and damage
« Reply #1 on: 21-06-2014, 19:06:22 »
and even if you see the enemy plane (which is alo difficult because of the protection shields+ the optics)
there are only 2-3 seconds left to aim on it and the low spread of the projectiles makes it even more dificult to aim a plane that only Shows you his front

Welcome to how it was IRL.

Offline Leopardi

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Re: aa gun precision and damage
« Reply #2 on: 26-08-2014, 19:08:33 »
and even if you see the enemy plane (which is alo difficult because of the protection shields+ the optics)
there are only 2-3 seconds left to aim on it and the low spread of the projectiles makes it even more dificult to aim a plane that only Shows you his front

Welcome to how it was IRL.
I bet the projectiles didn't generate from the sights like a laserbeam IRL. If the rounds were exiting from the barrels it would increase the area of effect just right.

Offline VonMudra

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Re: aa gun precision and damage
« Reply #3 on: 26-08-2014, 20:08:14 »
and even if you see the enemy plane (which is alo difficult because of the protection shields+ the optics)
there are only 2-3 seconds left to aim on it and the low spread of the projectiles makes it even more dificult to aim a plane that only Shows you his front

Welcome to how it was IRL.
I bet the projectiles didn't generate from the sights like a laserbeam IRL. If the rounds were exiting from the barrels it would increase the area of effect just right.

I was referring to his comment about the short window to shoot and the over-all low spread of the projectiles.  Yes, I agree that rounds shouldn't emanate from the sights like laser beams.  But any footage of AA guns firing from WW2 will show they do fly rather straight, especially at the ranges FH2 has.

Offline Captain Pyjama Shark

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Re: aa gun precision and damage
« Reply #4 on: 27-08-2014, 03:08:35 »
I've always gotten the idea that anti-aircraft guns didn't make many kills.  More about area prevention. 

However, I got the idea from books and films, and I can understand why most media doesn't kill pilots of ingloriously with AA gunfire.

Offline VonMudra

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Re: aa gun precision and damage
« Reply #5 on: 27-08-2014, 04:08:23 »
I've always gotten the idea that anti-aircraft guns didn't make many kills.  More about area prevention. 

However, I got the idea from books and films, and I can understand why most media doesn't kill pilots of ingloriously with AA gunfire.

AA guns were actually just as, if not more, deadly to aircraft than other planes.  Sorta like how AT guns were far more deadly than enemy tanks to other tanks.  For example, in the Winter War:

Quote
Finnish fighters shot down 240 confirmed Soviet aircraft, against the Finnish loss of 26.  Finnish antiaircraft gunners shot down between 314 to 444 Soviet aircraft. [1]
« Last Edit: 27-08-2014, 04:08:22 by VonMudra »

Offline Hjaldrgud

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Re: aa gun precision and damage
« Reply #6 on: 27-08-2014, 05:08:58 »

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Finnish fighters shot down 240 confirmed Soviet aircraft, against the Finnish loss of 26.  Finnish antiaircraft gunners shot down between 314 to 444 Soviet aircraft. [1]
But what about the ratio of AA and planes?

"Generous and brave men live the best" -Hávamál

Offline VonMudra

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Re: aa gun precision and damage
« Reply #7 on: 27-08-2014, 18:08:53 »
Quite true, and in general full 4-6 gun batteries could be shooting at individual planes.  Again though, this highlights how much more deadly they were.  Also they were much harder for enemy planes to take out, as that would involve getting very low, very slow, and going headon at a gun that is probably equally or better armed than you, plus is much more stable and therefore, more accurate.

Offline Mudzin

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Re: aa gun precision and damage
« Reply #8 on: 27-08-2014, 19:08:33 »
I've always gotten the idea that anti-aircraft guns didn't make many kills.  More about area prevention. 

However, I got the idea from books and films, and I can understand why most media doesn't kill pilots of ingloriously with AA gunfire.

AA guns were actually just as, if not more, deadly to aircraft than other planes.  Sorta like how AT guns were far more deadly than enemy tanks to other tanks.  For example, in the Winter War:

Quote
Finnish fighters shot down 240 confirmed Soviet aircraft, against the Finnish loss of 26.  Finnish antiaircraft gunners shot down between 314 to 444 Soviet aircraft. [1]

And how many did they have planes and AA guns in total?

Offline VonMudra

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Re: aa gun precision and damage
« Reply #9 on: 27-08-2014, 20:08:07 »
See my above comment.

Also, as further example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/37_mm_automatic_air_defense_gun_M1939_%2861-K%29

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Crews of the 37 mm AD guns shot down 14,657 Axis planes.

Also, out of 20,000 produced, that means that 1 plane was shot down for every 1.25 produced.
« Last Edit: 27-08-2014, 20:08:03 by VonMudra »

Offline Kelmola

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Re: aa gun precision and damage
« Reply #10 on: 27-08-2014, 21:08:58 »
And how many did they have planes and AA guns in total?
AA guns at start of war:
38 x 76 mm guns (10 totally obsolete)
30 x 40 mm guns (plus another 23 for training and Navy)
30 x 20 mm guns (4 totally obsolete)
125 x 7,62 mm AAMG

December additions:
48 x 40 mm (Bofors)
20 x 20 mm (FlaK 30)
3 AAMG companies established as well

January additions:
48 x 20 mm (Breda)

February additions:
9 x 75 mm (Bofors)

March additions (did not see combat):
24 x 76 mm (Vickers anti-zeppelin guns from WW1)
12 x 76 mm (Breda anti-zeppelin guns from WW1)

Assuming no losses (kek), maximum strength would have been:
47 x 75/76mm guns
101 x 40 mm guns
98 x 20 mm guns
125? x 7,62 mm guns (no info found quickly on the three companies' guns amount, or the amount of makeshift AAMG's converted from regular MG's)
Total 371+ guns

Kills:
76 mm 31 planes (0,7 per gun)
40 mm 128 planes (1,3 per gun)
20 mm 104 planes (1,1 per gun)
7,62 mm 51 planes (0,4 per gun)
Total 314 (0,8 per gun)

FAF fighter strength at start of war:
40 x Fokker D.XXI
15 x Bristol Bulldog Mk IVA

Additions:
12 x Gloster Gladiator Mk1 (flown by Swedish volunteer unit F19)
30 x Gloster Gladiator Mk2
26 x Fiat G.50 (of total 35 ordered)
30 x Morane-Saulnier MS406
10 x Hawker Hurricane Mk1 (too late to take part in combat)
6 x Brewster F2A-1 (of total 44 ordered, too late to take part in combat)


Kills/losses, kill ratio, kills per plane in service:
Fokker 151,5/10 (15,1:1, 3,8 per plane)
Bulldog 6/1 (6:1, 0,4 per plane)
Gladiator Mk1 8/3 (2,7:1, 0,7 per plane)
Gladiator Mk2 37/14 (2,6:1, 1,2 per plane)
Fiat 11/1 (11:1, 0,4 per plane)
Morane 14/1 (14:1, 0,5 per plane)
Total 227,5/30 (7,6:1, 1,5 per plane)
(The remaining 12,5 kills out of 240 made by bombers & recon aircraft)
« Last Edit: 27-08-2014, 21:08:44 by Kelmola »

Offline Kelmola

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Re: aa gun precision and damage
« Reply #11 on: 27-08-2014, 21:08:16 »
To sum up:
371+ guns (many of them not available at the onset), 314 kills, 0,8 per gun
153 fighters (many of them not available at the onset), 227,5 kills, 1,5 per plane

So a fighter was maybe twice as effective as an AA gun, but you could get many more than two AA guns at the cost of a single fighter. Plus training AA gunners was easier and faster than training pilots (and the pool of suitable recruits was also larger).

Offline Mudzin

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Re: aa gun precision and damage
« Reply #12 on: 27-08-2014, 21:08:10 »
To sum up:
371+ guns (many of them not available at the onset), 314 kills, 0,8 per gun
153 fighters (many of them not available at the onset), 227,5 kills, 1,5 per plane

So a fighter was maybe twice as effective as an AA gun, but you could get many more than two AA guns at the cost of a single fighter. Plus training AA gunners was easier and faster than training pilots (and the pool of suitable recruits was also larger).

So fighters were more effective....

Offline Slayer

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Re: aa gun precision and damage
« Reply #13 on: 27-08-2014, 21:08:13 »
Yes, in a single comparison for this example. But nationwide, the AA were much more effective (counting cost and training and everything).

Offline VonMudra

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Re: aa gun precision and damage
« Reply #14 on: 27-08-2014, 22:08:18 »
Yes, in a single comparison for this example. But nationwide, the AA were much more effective (counting cost and training and everything).

What Kelmola and Slayer said.  The guns are an assload cheaper, crews are easier to train, and you can still rip apart enemy planes.  As I noted above too, these were generally used in batteries, so you may have 4-5 guns all shooting at a single plane, meaning that you're a lot more likely to hit.  Also, as I said, it's hard to counter enemy AA apart from running, since they can be kept hidden until the right moment to shoot, and it's near suicide to attempt to strafe and take one out, since you're always going to be more inaccurate than it.