TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.

[Gotkai]

Wait? That's correct. Somehow.
You wrote :

Commander has an impact in geometric and/or wide maps, tightest being *Lebisey* and Bardia.

Ok. Commander has 2 tools. Artillery and dropping a supply box.
If you are not talking about artillery, what else are you talking about? Supply boxes?

Btw. I'm not angry with assisting people. I'm sick of injuring people although, giving up my position and that advantage and in return i'm getting shot, just because that guy had a lot of luck. That's i'm sick of. My screenshot folder is full of pictures with assistpoints for kills during the spawnscreen because the first hit didn't kill. You mean i should feel lucky with that? Because i had a nice battledialogue?
This kind of feature is exactly the reason why i quit BF2 years ago.

[Airshark79]

Wait? That's correct. Somehow.
You wrote :

Commander has an impact in geometric and/or wide maps, tightest being *Lebisey* and Bardia.

Ok. Commander has 2 tools. Artillery and dropping a supply box.
If you are not talking about artillery, what else are you talking about? Supply boxes?

Talking about orders. In lebisey, the three attack paths are easy to get organised on in terms of squad organisation, and commander has a possibility of impact on orchestrating those. So is bardia, in the right conditions.

You are right to be mad at kill assists because it is an untouched and unexplored issue with the current design of FH2, where your single bullet doesn't kill but the enemies' does. But in BF2 expecting to have killed everyone you took the first shot against is, I don't know, against the weapon design?

[Gotkai]

Wait??? Orders?!?

We are talking about FH2. Everyone should be able after 2-3 rounds to see how a map works. If it's not in the map description, but therefore it's necessary to read it.

FH2 is not Operation Barbarossa. It's on a tactical, not a strategical level.

2-3 good squadleaders (you know who you are) can organize that better than any commander could. I'd rather choose a guy capping flags than a guy sitting on a radio, talking bullshit and clicking every 3 minutes on a minimap.

[LuckyOne]

Yep, but the thing is, now we need "good" SLs because they have to do ALL the work. They need to keep track of the spotted things on the minimap, they need to look out for enemies near the flag they are attacking, they need to hide so they don't get their ass killed...

If the commander could help the SLs feeding them valuable info (for example through markers on the map),  even an "average " SL could play better, because he doesn't need to "guess" where the heavier enemy units like Tigers and infantry squads are, he could just look at the damn map that would have the latest info on it (if the commander is competent to get that info from other squads).

Nobody's talking about "orders". After all, the SL can always refuse the order. The commander's role should be keeping an eye on the big picture and advising SL to take the less defended paths.
Sadly, as every SL knows the commander currently can't really do his job because of the limited toolset, they just ignore him, and rightly so. But if the commander is competent (has a really good photographic memory) and the team is cooperative (lots of spotters), he sometimes gives good advice. Yet SLs still ignore him because they don't believe him.

The bar for SLing is huge. Yeah, we have the "good" SLs now. What happens when they leave? Or when they teamstack? How will the gameplay look then? It will look bad, as new players need to play a certain amount of hours to get to know all the maps and the good paths of advance and hiding spots.

[hitm4k3r]

Talking about orders. In lebisey, the three attack paths are easy to get organised on in terms of squad organisation, and commander has a possibility of impact on orchestrating those. So is bardia, in the right conditions.

If you really think that a commander will have an impact on how those three ways are attacked then you are clearly dreaming. The only thing that a commander giving orders does is to annoy and distract the SL. And you want to know why? Because he just lacks a lot of information that people see on the frontline. He knows nothing about the amount of people in an area, what kind of resistance or what else is to be expected. This can only work when we have more communication tools, wich on the other hand doesn't work because of how FH2 is designed in general. It is too fast paced to alow this kind of communication. I am playing FH2 not because I want to play one map for several hours. I like diversity and variation of the scenaries. Desicions have to be made quick.

Naturally people will attack those routes either where the resistance is on a minimum level or just where they like to attack for different kind of reasons. Tanks naturally go for the east part on Lebisey because it is more open. Now some people will say "but he drops crates and arty". Well, getting repaired by real players is much more reliable, faster and most player controlled artillery pieces are much more accurate thus inflicting less teamkills and more damage to the enemy team and they give you far more abilities. The only map where I sometimes see commander arty working to an extent is PdH. But that's pretty much it. Most of the time a good mortar gunner is much more valuable on that map though, giving smoke support and stuff like that.

I took part in the last FlH campaign and although being a nice experience I always felt that the chain of command took too much time being much more a hasle than an advantage. Sometimes several hundred tickets went to waste just because people were discussing also for pretty simple decisions. Communication between squadleaders is much more important than a dude on a chair giving orders to people who mostly know better what to do next anyway in a far shorter amount of time. I don't need a commander in FH2, simple as that. In PR it can make much more sense since he has more tools and the commander is part of the mechanic, but not in FH2.

@Lucky: "Yep, but the thing is, now we need "good" SLs because they have to do ALL the work. They need to keep track of the spotted things on the minimap, they need to look out for enemies near the flag they are attacking, they need to hide so they don't get their ass killed..."

Do you really think that a commander with better tools can replace skilled SLs?

[LuckyOne]

I don't, but he can certainly help the less skilled ones. A valuable advice is a valuable advice, no matter who it comes from. The point of the Commander should be to ease the communication between squads. If each SL has the necessary info without asking the other SL through typing, he can only keep the communication to a minimum and focus on making a plan. Many SL just give up to pass valuable info to the other squads because it's just too time consuming to type it all out, and spotting markers fade fast and disappear if you get killed. Then the other squad comes and falls into the same trap again.

And FH2 is not really that fast paced so it couldn't work. All it takes is more markers for the Commander and SLs who know how to use the binoculars. The other tools are here, voip is working most of the time. If the commander asks for info the SL can easily answer him, or even type it while he's hiding.

Adding a scout plane that's remote controlled would also be cool and replace the current, barely used scout planes. Maybe also ability to call in a tactical airstrike for the Commander kit?

[Gotkai]

Its easier to watch the minimap for 3 seconds than to communicate with the commander.

There are tactical airstrikes. Therefore you use planes. Invite a pilot in your squad and you can give them targets. Many times used on Cobra and Totalize.

[hitm4k3r]

Well, what I meant with fast paced was not necessarily about the FPS gameplay itself. Communication between different instances takes time, time that you don't have in FH2. Thatswhy I mentioned PR where matches last far longer and where you don't run out of tickets so fast.

With adding remote controlled scout planes and stuff like that we get into a discussion of gaming philosophy again where it is pretty much a matter of taste. I personaly enjoy FH2 as it is because remote controlled stuff is reduced to a minimum. It just doesn't fit into the WWII scenary from my POV. Tripwire added/enhanced this stuff in RO and it made the game worse in that aspect. An AI controlled untouchable plane circeling over your head and giving your position away has nothing to do with teamplay from my perspective. A wallhack (basicly what those scout planes are) makes a game more accessible and easy, I will admit that. But the question is whether it makes the quality of the game better for all people on the server.

I had that discussion with Flippy a few days ago in terms of artillery. I rather see the player really involved in the battle thus placing real artillery pieces on a map instead of a chair. A "player" hiding in a corner playing god on his minimap is not really a player in the core sense of the game. I can accept things like scoutcars or command cars with the abillity to give that kind of UV scan in a certain radius, because this implies that this player really enters the battle and it is a tradeoff for the power that is given to the player.

[LuckyOne]

Its easier to watch the minimap for 3 seconds than to communicate with the commander.

We seem to agree here. That's exactly the point I'm saying. If the commander could put more permanent markers for spotted stuff you wouldn't need to communicate with him directly. All the info you need would be on the actual map. When you spot something he could mark it so it warns other squads even if you die, or forget to keep it spotted all the time. Only thing you need to say to him is when he asks: "Is that Tiger you spotted 3 minutes earlier down" is simple Yes/No so he can update the map.

@hitm4k3r
You're right that there needs to be a sense of risk for the commander. But implying that the commander "is not part of the game" just because he's sitting on a chair and not getting shot at is just stupid. And this "playing god" is not what I meant. I thought something more in line with a floating camera in the sky, with manual spotting, no auto spotting. Sure, if you give him a auto spotting ability, you might make him closer to god, but he's still not always safe, the radios are also at flags, not only in the mainbase. Maybe put them in open tents so the other side can airstrike them? Or just put (static?) command cars, then they should be easily destroyable by airstrikes.

[Ts4EVER]

Commander is useless and was a stupid idea from the start. You know who the real commander is? The mapper. He determines the general strategy, as in which flags to attack when and from where. It's up to the players to figure out the best (tactical) way to do it.

[LuckyOne]

Ts, I wouldn't call it useless and stupid. It was an innovative idea at that time, albeit a bit too complicated and idealistic to work in a fast paced game. Sure the mapper is the one that makes the general strategy and flow of the map, but the game is a dynamic, living thing. Once the map goes out of the editor and you put actual intelligent agents (be it people or bots) on it it will never play exactly the same. People make decisions and those decisions change the game.

And I agree it's up to the players to figure out the way to do it. I don't consider the commander the actual "strategic" level. He's still just a tactician, or perhaps a more fitting definition, a liaison officer with the purpose of transferring information and mediating between different squads. The SLs are the brain, the Commander is just a supporting asset to help them act and think.

[Slayer]

When I'm an SL I always follow the orders of the commander. Of course I can think that I know it better and complain, but if I want the commander (and my team) to be successful, the first step is to follow the orders.

[Gotkai]

Me not. In many cases i don´t just think to know it better, i KNOW i know it better than any commander noob with 5hours playtime.

[Slayer]

Me not. In many cases i don´t just think to know it better, i KNOW i know it better than any commander noob with 5hours playtime.

People never learn the gropes of this game if they get ignored all the time by vets. A little more help can improve our playerbase.

[hitm4k3r]

Fact is, if I am new to a game I usualy don't pretend to play commander and guide players who know it better.

I like to help new people, invite them to my squads and have some fun while giving them a few hints here and there. But when there comes a new player who expects to achieve something out of nowhere then I am not sure whether I personaly want to do this. Because I would like to enjoy my game. First learn the basics, then start to lead/command people and not the other way around.