Author Topic: Development progress?  (Read 25669 times)

Offline hyperanthropos

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #300 on: 18-08-2013, 11:08:00 »
Could you do me a favor shitmaker and check, if you can oneshot a Sherman only to the side or also to the front? Of course only if there are no axtra tracks and stuff.

By the way does the the Panzerfaust 30 has the same damage as the 60/100? I can hardly believe so, since I find myself unable to oneshot a Sherman to the front with a 30 wherelse with a 60/100 its no problem.

If they have different damage why? Didnt they have the same armor penetration capability?

Offline Strat_84

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #301 on: 18-08-2013, 11:08:55 »
First I don't agree with that article, normalization is not an effect imagined by WoT devs, it's broadly accepted and proved by actual test(like the 120mm penetration pic I posted).

That's the first time I've ever heard about this theory. Calling it broadly accepted and proven when it goes against all the laws of physics is definitively a bit presumptuous.
And again, as I told you previously if you read what I wrote, you don't need much observation sense to see that your picture doesn't prove anything.

Second, the article itself had been contradicting in using the term normalization:

Quote
“normalization” gets higher values with a greater shell diameter (that means more mass per mm²). In other words: Small calibers are worse against sloped armor.

If "nomalization higher" here means increasing the target armor, then the first sentence means larger calibre and more mass per mm² helps increasing armor? Even if so, why the second sentence says small calibres are worse?
And he uses quote marks ... He's not meaning "your" normalization, he's meaning an effect that would make penetration easier with negative values, and harder with positive value. Did you read the bloody chart ?  :-X

Third, we are talking about obivious case that shell should penetrate despite angle, like tank AP hitting an APC. The force per space a tank shell apply to 10mm of APC armor is way beyond its resistence, even it's shot from 10 degree.

Things are not just simple trigonometric, if it is, did you ever see a paper bounce off bullet?
This smoky theory may seem obvious to you, but for any skilled physicist it is obviously plain bullshit. And it's a bit more complicated than just trigonometry.
If you ever have the possibility, try with a rigid steel sheet as thin as paper. Or maybe you would like to claim normalization proven if you manage to penetrate a 120mm thick paper plate ?  ;D


Offline Lightning

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #302 on: 18-08-2013, 13:08:10 »
By the way does the the Panzerfaust 30 has the same damage as the 60/100? I can hardly believe so, since I find myself unable to oneshot a Sherman to the front with a 30 wherelse with a 60/100 its no problem.

If they have different damage why? Didnt they have the same armor penetration capability?
You can check this yourself really easily with nothing but winrar and notepad. It takes less than a minute.

Go to your fh2 folder and open objects_weapons_server.zip. Now look for the panzerfausts. They are in \Weapons\Handheld. Here you see a .tweak file. This file contains the code for the weapon. Now in BF2 weapons fire projectiles and the damage a projectile does depends on its base damage and the damage multiplier between its material and its target's material. For the panzerfausts however, we are in luck, it's extra simple.

All panzerfausts have a separate directory for their projectile in the weapons folder itself, panzerfaust30m_charge/ for example. Open this folder and open the .tweak file of the projectile. Now, there are 2 kinds of damage for the panzerfaust 30 projectile, explosive (ObjectTemplate.detonation.explosionDamage 140) and regular (ObjectTemplate.damage 55). Explosive damage isn't very interesting, because it's the regular damage that counts against tanks. So we see the panzerfaust 30 does 55 hitpoints of base damage. We also see some other interesting things, like the minimal damage is defined twice and the projectile loses damage over distance, though this only starts after 50m and the projectile can't be shot that far. The most important thing other than the base damage to note here however is the projectile material, which controls the damage multiplier. For the panzerfaust 30 we see that it is ObjectTemplate.material 310.

Now we can check the other panzerfausts. We see, luckily, that both the other panzerfausts also use material 310, so we don't have to check the material manager to compare them. However, we also see that both the 60 and 100 do 90 base damage, so that is quite a lot more than the 30.

So yes indeed, that does not seem to be correct.

Offline Strat_84

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #303 on: 18-08-2013, 13:08:57 »
Maybe the projectile of the panzerfaust 30 isn't as big as the others ? Or that's a panzerfaust 30 klein we have ingame (even though the model doesn't look like the picture I've found) ?

I know the panzerfaust 30 klein has a lower caliber, but the informations I could find with a quick research about panzerfaust 30 are rather confusing and contradictory.


Offline kingtiger1891

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #304 on: 18-08-2013, 13:08:35 »
That's the first time I've ever heard about this theory.
This smoky theory may seem obvious to you, but for any skilled physicist it is obviously plain bullshit.
A "skilled physicist" who first time heard (I'm not saying agree) this theory? Hmm...

And he uses quote marks ... He's not meaning "your" normalization, he's meaning an effect that would make penetration easier with negative values, and harder with positive value. Did you read the bloody chart ?  :-X
Ok, so a higher value of normalization means harder to penetrate, right?

Quote
“normalization” gets higher values with a greater shell diameter (that means more mass per mm²).
Greater shell diameter makes it harder to penetrate.

Quote
In other words: Small calibers are worse against sloped armor.
Small calibres are even harder.........

And again, as I told you previously if you read what I wrote, you don't need much observation sense to see that your picture doesn't prove anything.
I don't prove it, what happens is happened and is clearly shown on the photo. I brought up shell normalization because that's a one theory to explain this phenomenon. You have your own explaination to it on the other thread, fine, but does it make a difference? Isn't the armor plate of the vehicles have the same shape of cross section as the plate in the photo I post? It would make a difference if it's a triangular cross section.

Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #305 on: 18-08-2013, 14:08:07 »
Lightning if you looked in the beta you might have looked at the Faustpatrone, that one has a smaller warhead.

Offline Strat_84

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #306 on: 18-08-2013, 15:08:05 »
A "skilled physicist" who first time heard (I'm not saying agree) this theory? Hmm...
What do you think, that people have to get informed about every single bizarre theory that anyone may produce in the world ?
It's the same as if you were saying I, as an Energy specialist, had to know every single detail about the shitload of different "perpetual movement" machineries that generations of scammers kept popping out for more than two centuries.

And in case you believed it, no you can't generate energy with any device of that kind.  ;)

And he uses quote marks ... He's not meaning "your" normalization, he's meaning an effect that would make penetration easier with negative values, and harder with positive value. Did you read the bloody chart ?  :-X
Ok, so a higher value of normalization means harder to penetrate, right?
Right, if you use the "normalization" term as in the article.


Quote
“normalization” gets higher values with a greater shell diameter (that means more mass per mm²).
Greater shell diameter makes it harder to penetrate.

Quote
In other words: Small calibers are worse against sloped armor.
Small calibres are even harder.........
Right, but said a misleading way.

The proper formulation is:
The slope of the armor makes penetration even harder than simply comparing the penetration power of a shell to the apparent armor thickness ( armor thickness/sin(angle) ).
This additionnal effect exists for every AP type of shell, and decreases with caliber increase.

And again, as I told you previously if you read what I wrote, you don't need much observation sense to see that your picture doesn't prove anything.
I don't prove it, what happens is happened and is clearly shown on the photo. I brought up shell normalization because that's a one theory to explain this phenomenon. You have your own explaination to it on the other thread, fine, but does it make a difference? Isn't the armor plate of the vehicles have the same shape of cross section as the plate in the photo I post? It would make a difference if it's a triangular cross section.
It's not that I have my explanation, it's only that there is NOTHING on your bloody picture related to that normalisation theory. You're bringing a theory when there's NO phenomenon to explain !

The lower part of the entry point on right is STRAIGHT, which can't be if a shell turned like shown in your animation.

So what do you want to explain with this ? The slight curve at the exit point on left ? The basic balance of forces easily explains this, you don't need any other theory. And anyway it's the bloody EXIT point, who cares about the way the round exits, your point is all about it should penetrate with a turning round !


Offline hyperanthropos

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #307 on: 18-08-2013, 15:08:44 »
First thank you very much Lightning. Not only for the detailed information, but also für the explanation how to get it for myself next time!

@Ts4ever
But why are those files called Panzerfaust 30m than, not Faustpatrone. Though of course you might be right we should check this.

BUT this difference is very much what my experience ingame suggested. One shoting a Sherman to the front with the 30 is impossible, while with the 60/100 its easy going. (I know there are different Shermans and in my experience it accounts for all of them. Second on the maps with 60/100 there are mostly the stronger M4A3 Shermans, so the 60/100 is even stronger apparently.)

So if there is really the difference between damage of the 30 and the 60/100 Fausts there are three questions in my mind.

First is this based on a historical difference in penetration i dont know of yet. At least German Wikipedia doesnt say so: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerfaust (look at teh table should be understandable for english speakers too)

Second is there any phsical reason, because greater range and higher speed of the projectle somehow causes less penetration (At least sounds implausible to me)

Third is there ar gameplay reason? But having a worse AT weapon with smaler range and better AT weapon with biger range, doenst seem to make sence.


Maybe Devs/Betatasters could have a look at this and consider a change. Thanks.


Okay either I need to open another thread or the two others, probably both....


Offline Lightning

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #308 on: 18-08-2013, 15:08:02 »
I did (accidentally) look at the beta, but not at the faustpatrone. The Faustpatrone does 55 base damage and has material 315.


If we wanted to compare the faustpatrone with the panzerfaust 30, we would open common_server.zip and look under \Material at materialManagerDefine.con. Here we see material 310 is called "Rocket_Panzerfaust" and material 315 is called "Rocket_Bazooka_M9". This is just for checking the name really, the multiplier table is in materialManagerSettings.con. But since this file is very large, we can help ourselves by finding a target material in the define.con. Let's pick 80mm armour, since that's what the Sherman has on the front, if I recall correctly. So we look for "80mm" and find that "tank_80mm" is material 130.

Now we look in materialManagerSettings.con and search for "MaterialManager.createCell 310 130" This is the damage multiplier for material 310 (Rocket_Panzerfaust) against 130 (tank_80mm) and we see it is 15. That means it will do 15*55=825 hitpoints of damage. If we look at the Sherman's hitpoint we see that it's 750, so a panzerfaust 30 will kill a Sherman*. Now, will the faustpatrone do so too? Let' s search for "MaterialManager.createCell 315 130". We see now that MaterialManager.damageMod 10. 10*55=550 hitpoints. That's not enough to kill a Sherman with one shot to the front!

*; Because the Sherman is under the influence of the anglemod, this means you will only do this damage if the angle is between 0 and 30 (or something) from the norm. At higher angles, you will start to lose damage. Because 825 is only marginally more than 750, you will find that you don't need much of an angle to have the Sherman survive your shot.

Offline Lightning

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #309 on: 18-08-2013, 15:08:26 »
First thank you very much Lightning. Not only for the detailed information, but also für the explanation how to get it for myself next time!
Sure, no problem.

First is this based on a historical difference?

Second is there any phsical reason?

Third is there a gameplay reason?
As far as I can tell there is no historical or physical reason. Though I can really only find one primary source, it indicates the panzerfaust projectiles are all the same and all can penetrate 200mm of armour. Physically, HEAT projectiles should generally be independent on range and speed.

So is there a gameplay reason? Maybe. But most likely not. The panzerfaust 30 was added to the build over 5 years ago and weapon damage, especially damage done and taken by tanks is something that is constantly being revised and edited. There are a lot of developers and they all make their own changes. And you have to keep in mind that there are like 100 tanks and 50 or something projectiles that can damage tanks, so if a general revision is made, there are so many different combinations, that it is impossible to test them all. Add anglemod and poor collision models to the mix and you've got something that's more or less impossible to test. It isn't until months of public gameplay with hundreds of players that clear patterns will emerge. Most likely, I think, is that it's an oversight. According to the revision log, the panzerfaust damage was reduced from 100 to 55 four years ago during a revision of the tank damage values. It hasn't been changed since, while I'm quite sure other things have changed. The panzerfaust 60 and 100 were added much later, 3 years ago, and likely have had their damage values set independently.

Offline hyperanthropos

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #310 on: 18-08-2013, 15:08:35 »
So if I understand this correctly the reason for the Faust30 not killing Shermans to the front is the angle of the armor.
Or I am just haluzinating/talking bullshit and the 30 is actually destroying Shermans to the front.
I honestly have to say that I am very sure that a 30 is not killing a Sherman when fired at directly (not from a roof minimizing the angle etc.).

So IMO the three question of my last post are not quite answerd. I think the penetration of 200mm should enable all Panzerfausts to kill a Sherman to the front. (Exept if there are historical/physical/gameplay issues)
IMO the data kindly presented by Lightnig shows who the difference Ingame is implemented, but I fails to see why the difference in damage is Ingame in the first place. Meaning why the 30 and the 60/100 deal different ammounts of damage, when compared to historical/physical/gameplay facts or concerns.

EDIT: so apparantly this is an issue concerning testing and the development of the mod. Thank you Lighting for those insights.

I suggest to raise the damage of the Faust 30 and make it equal to those of the 60/100. I hope I have shown why I think so and would like to hear concerns.

EDIT: I think it might be at least worth while to implement Fausts with equally high damage in the Beta and have a look if it seems to work.
« Last Edit: 18-08-2013, 15:08:17 by hyperanthropos »

Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #311 on: 18-08-2013, 15:08:09 »
I seem to remember Kev saying that it was intentional so that you need to sneak around more with the Panzerfaust 30.

Offline LuckyOne

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #312 on: 18-08-2013, 16:08:30 »
I seem to remember Kev saying that it was intentional so that you need to sneak around more with the Panzerfaust 30.

But that doesn't really make any sense doesn't it? I mean it already has smaller range, meaning you have to sneak around more with it anyway.

Well, thanks for the insights in the dev process, it really is nice to hear things are constantly being revised and improved. Of course with such a small dev team and so much content that needs to be changed, errors are likely to sneak in...
This sentence is intentionally left unfinished...

Offline hyperanthropos

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #313 on: 18-08-2013, 16:08:09 »
Aha a wild gameplay issue appears, interesting.

I have to say I find it to be irritating to have a weaker AT weapon on Normandy maps where it is often harder to get close to a tank, while on the Bulge and Germany maps its often easier to get close to them, because of the forests (Eppeldorf, Bastogne, Hürtgen, Meuse Riverline - to some extend).

Sure there are many hedgerows on Normandy maps, but I think forest is still the way better to approach a tank. Cover in terms of visibility is better or almost just as good. Also a hegerow mostly only provides cover from two distinct directions, whereas forest provides universal cover.

Also IMO the historical facts should be of a higher status, but this of course is again really only my opinion.

Isn't the added "sneakyness" already in the 30 with its way worse range which forces you to sneak closer to a tank. What also contributes to the player having to get way closer therefore being more sneaky is the slower projectile speed of the 30. It makes it quite harder to place a sure shot on a tank, especially when its moving.

EDIT: So now my post is totally overshadowed by LuckyOnes, because mine is just longer....saying the same. Thank you Lucky I wanted my attention and get famous you ruined everything...
« Last Edit: 18-08-2013, 16:08:24 by hyperanthropos »

Offline Lightning

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #314 on: 18-08-2013, 16:08:49 »
So if I understand this correctly the reason for the Faust30 not killing Shermans to the front is the angle of the armor.
Or I am just haluzinating/talking bullshit and the 30 is actually destroying Shermans to the front.
It's the angle of the impact.

But now things get complicated. What is a Sherman? Here's a list of Shermans in the mod, their frontal armour and their hitpoints and whether or not a panzerfaust 30 can kill it in one shot to the front at an angle 0 degrees from the norm.

Great Britain:

Name: m4a1early_eu_brit
Upper Front Hull Armour: 80mm
Hitpoints: 1000
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

Name: m4a1mid_eu_brit
Upper Front Hull Armour: 80mm
Hitpoints: 1000
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

Name: sherman_v_mid / sherman_v_mid_olive
Upper Front Hull Armour: 80mm
Hitpoints: 1000
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

Name: sherman_v_late / sherman_v_late_olive
Upper Front Hull Armour: 90mm
Hitpoints: 1000
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

Name: sherman_v_late_alt / sherman_v_late_alt_olive
Upper Front Hull Armour: 80mm
Hitpoints: 1000
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

Name: sherman_vc_early / sherman_vc_early_olive
Upper Front Hull Armour: 80mm
Hitpoints: 1000
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

Name: sherman_vc_late / sherman_vc_late_olive
Upper Front Hull Armour: 90mm
Hitpoints: 1000
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

US Shermans (and British African)

Name: m4a1_early
Upper Front Hull Armour: 70mm
Hitpoints: 750
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: yes

Name: m4a1
Upper Front Hull Armour: 80mm
Hitpoints: 750
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: yes

Name: m4a1early_eu
Upper Front Hull Armour: 80mm
Hitpoints: 1000
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

Name: m4a1mid_eu
Upper Front Hull Armour: 80mm
Hitpoints: 1000
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

Name: m4a1_76mm
Upper Front Hull Armour: 80mm
Hitpoints: 1000
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

Name: m4a3
Upper Front Hull Armour: 80mm
Hitpoints: 1000
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

Name: m4a3_76 / m4a3_76_win / m4a3_76_win_alt
Upper Front Hull Armour: 80mm
Hitpoints: 1000
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

Name: m4a3_105
Upper Front Hull Armour: 80mm
Hitpoints: 1000
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

Name: m4a3_win
Upper Front Hull Armour: 80mm
Hitpoints: 1000
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

Name: m4a3e2_jumbo75 / m4a3e2_jumbo75_win
Upper Front Hull Armour: 130mm (?)
Hitpoints: 1425
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

Name: m4a3e2_jumbo76 / m4a3e2_jumbo76_win
Upper Front Hull Armour: 130mm (?)
Hitpoints: 1425
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

So it seems, unfortunately, I picked one of the two Shermans out of a total of 27 which the panzerfaust 30 is able to penetrate. These are both African Shermans, I think, so they would never encounter a panzerfaust. So yes, you are completely right. You cannot kill a Sherman with a panzerfaust 30 from the front, whatever the angle.

Why are Shermans coded like this, with different front armours and different hitpoints? No idea. Probably for the same reason the panzerfaust 30 has a different penetration from the 60 and 100.


The argument that coding a weapon intentionally weak so it forces you to sneak is a very weak one in my opinion, especially considering the range of it is 30 metres, so you are going to have to sneak no matter what. Also, I should note that according to the revision logs, Kev hasn't ever changed the damage the panzerfaust 30 does.

In my opinion, the panzerfaust 30 base damage should be increased to 90, so it is the same as the 60 and 100.
« Last Edit: 18-08-2013, 16:08:58 by Lightning »