Author Topic: Development progress?  (Read 25675 times)

Offline PanzerKnacker

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #270 on: 15-08-2013, 16:08:28 »
Yeah, 2-3 bullets hits the target others spray over bushes in the back.  ;D

But the difference is, IRL the rounds go where the barrel is pointed, in FH2 they go all over the place. Also the first few rounds should be on target if aimed right, while in FH 2 they have a ton of random deviation. Sometimes it's hard to hit someone 1.5 m in front of you, which is total bullshit.

Yes, that's because the barrel aims at the center of the screen. But yeah sure, why not add laser beam Bren auto-mode hipfiring. Then we can do the same laser beam hipfire buff for the MG42. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B57dW3A-DT0
« Last Edit: 15-08-2013, 17:08:30 by PanzerKnacker »
He was not wrong. Amateurs talk tactics, pros talk logistics.

Offline x4fun ODIUM

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #271 on: 15-08-2013, 19:08:06 »
He's also an old guy in his 60's firing a Bren for the first time, not a very fit 20yr old who's been trained on the Bren for 6mths before going into combat.

DUDE THAT IS fucking R. Lee Ermey. He has fired more machine guns than Rambo. Watch some good movies. Start by looking up Stanley Kubrick in Google. R. L. Ermey an old guy who has never fired...ffs what has the world come to... :(
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Offline LuckyOne

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #272 on: 15-08-2013, 19:08:33 »
Yes, that's because the barrel aims at the center of the screen. But yeah sure, why not add laser beam Bren auto-mode hipfiring. Then we can do the same laser beam hipfire buff for the MG42. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B57dW3A-DT0

The thing is, I just want a chance to defend myself when someone pops out on me around a corner. At least make the first 2 bullets land near the center, then put random deviation like now.
This sentence is intentionally left unfinished...

Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #273 on: 15-08-2013, 20:08:18 »
I made a test with the DP28 yesterday and it sprays like hell too and explains the whole problem. Even if I fire in prone position, take my time to aim and fire in singleshot mode (no bursts), the bullets spray totaly random and hit around a center point in the distance (around 150 metre-200 metre) with a deviation of several metres. I wait around three or four seconds between every single shot. And this explains the problem of randomness we have in the game with alot of different weapons. Even if I aim perfectly fine with a very accurate weapon like a rifle, I can't predict whether I will hit or not. I think that it is possible to find a good balance as 2.3 and 2.4 worked better in terms of the accuracy of weapons. Ofcourse it needs to be balanced and will never be perfect, but there certainly is room for improvements.

Offline Matthew_Baker

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #274 on: 15-08-2013, 20:08:29 »
He's also an old guy in his 60's firing a Bren for the first time, not a very fit 20yr old who's been trained on the Bren for 6mths before going into combat.

DUDE THAT IS fucking R. Lee Ermey. He has fired more machine guns than Rambo. Watch some good movies. Start by looking up Stanley Kubrick in Google. R. L. Ermey an old guy who has never fired...ffs what has the world come to... :(

Took the words outta my mouth, that guy was a Marine Corps drill sergeant and was a military supervisor for films before becoming the stereotype for drill sergeants everywhere. I'd trust his opinion on weapons and how they're fired.   

Offline Kalkalash

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #275 on: 15-08-2013, 21:08:08 »
I made a test with the DP28 yesterday and it sprays like hell too and explains the whole problem. Even if I fire in prone position, take my time to aim and fire in singleshot mode (no bursts), the bullets spray totaly random and hit around a center point in the distance (around 150 metre-200 metre) with a deviation of several metres. I wait around three or four seconds between every single shot. And this explains the problem of randomness we have in the game with alot of different weapons. Even if I aim perfectly fine with a very accurate weapon like a rifle, I can't predict whether I will hit or not. I think that it is possible to find a good balance as 2.3 and 2.4 worked better in terms of the accuracy of weapons. Ofcourse it needs to be balanced and will never be perfect, but there certainly is room for improvements.
Since when have rifles or SMGs had any deviation (aside from after jumping and going prone)? The last time I played the bullets went where I aimed, even when firing full auto.
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Offline Strat_84

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #276 on: 16-08-2013, 10:08:28 »
But a 75mm solid armor piercing round should at least penetrate that 10mm no matter how sloped it is.

That's elementary mechanics, the shell will bounce with very low angles, even if it's only a 10mm thick plate.

If you have ever seen a picture of a tank shell, you should understand the shape of the shell makes any penetration at angles below 10° (maybe even a bit more) VERY unlikely.
Only an insignificant proportion of the shell's velocity force would be applied on the side of the sharp end of that shell when it hits, and it can only slide on that surface, not penetrate it.


Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #277 on: 16-08-2013, 13:08:57 »
I made a test with the DP28 yesterday and it sprays like hell too and explains the whole problem. Even if I fire in prone position, take my time to aim and fire in singleshot mode (no bursts), the bullets spray totaly random and hit around a center point in the distance (around 150 metre-200 metre) with a deviation of several metres. I wait around three or four seconds between every single shot. And this explains the problem of randomness we have in the game with alot of different weapons. Even if I aim perfectly fine with a very accurate weapon like a rifle, I can't predict whether I will hit or not. I think that it is possible to find a good balance as 2.3 and 2.4 worked better in terms of the accuracy of weapons. Ofcourse it needs to be balanced and will never be perfect, but there certainly is room for improvements.
Since when have rifles or SMGs had any deviation (aside from after jumping and going prone)? The last time I played the bullets went where I aimed, even when firing full auto.

Rifles and smgs have almost no deviation. The DP28 is WIP.

Offline x4fun ODIUM

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #278 on: 16-08-2013, 14:08:00 »
Strat84, I do understand your point and have been to Munster and other places that exhibit tank shells.
The question is, what will a tank shell, with that energy (50m) at that angle do)

a) at the spot of impact (deform the metal, maybe get stuck and deflected downwards by any protruding objects)?
b) where will it bounce to? (I suppose directly into the driver's compartment, killing the people inside if they are not very lucky)

I do not have a problem with having to use HE shells to destroy lightly armored vehicles.
(The idea being, that a sabot round will just pierce and pass through).

Only then it must be assured, that the HE shell, when it hits the APC, assuredly kills it. Which it sadly does not at the moment. The result is (as seen here) that I have to fire 3 rounds of AP on an APC (or AT gun, when unlucky) because AP shells bounce off and HE shells do not work properly either.

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Offline Strat_84

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #279 on: 16-08-2013, 15:08:04 »
Strat84, I do understand your point and have been to Munster and other places that exhibit tank shells.
The question is, what will a tank shell, with that energy (50m) at that angle do)

a) at the spot of impact (deform the metal, maybe get stuck and deflected downwards by any protruding objects)?
b) where will it bounce to? (I suppose directly into the driver's compartment, killing the people inside if they are not very lucky)

That's a good question. In your example, yes there's a quite high probability the shell would be deflected into the driver's armored shutter, and it probably would penetrate it. Or the trajectory might be messed up by the bounce and the shell deflected a 2nd time by the shutter with some luck, that's hard to know.

But shooting the top of the engine of a halftrack while being right in front of it is a worst case scenario. That's one of the very few situations where the game engine doesn't allow to model exactly what would happen in real life, but that's the best tradeoff we can have.


Offline kingtiger1891

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #280 on: 16-08-2013, 20:08:20 »
That's elementary mechanics, the shell will bounce with very low angles, even if it's only a 10mm thick plate.
Remined me of an old joke: If a paper is sloped to 0.000000000001 degree, it can withstand any AP shell in any calibre...

Plz google: Shell normalization.

But to be fair, angle mod bug isn't really the problem, it was there in 2.4 and the bugs were minor back then.
« Last Edit: 16-08-2013, 20:08:13 by kingtiger1891 »

Offline Lightning

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #281 on: 16-08-2013, 21:08:22 »
Remined me of an old joke: If a paper is sloped to 0.000000000001 degree, it can withstand any AP shell in any calibre...
If we assume the paper is a sheet of 0.1mm thick, an AP shell that hits it at a 0.000000000001 degrees or (89.9999999999999 degrees from the norm) will travel through 5.7295*10^12 mm or 5.7 million kilometres. That's about 15 times the distance to the Moon.

Plz google: Shell normalization.
I only get pages referring to World of Tanks. One site, this one, quite clearly states that real world normalisation values would be positive, adding to the armour. So the projectile gets deflected off the armour, not into it. Which makes sense to me...

Offline kingtiger1891

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #282 on: 16-08-2013, 22:08:27 »
I only get pages referring to World of Tanks. One site, this one

This article is arguing the whole idea of shell normalization..

The normailization works like:



Actual pic:



As it shows the shell is turning into the armor.

Offline Lightning

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #283 on: 16-08-2013, 22:08:38 »
Yes, but according to the data of Lorrin Rexford Bird and Robert D. Livingston: WWII Ballistics: Armor and Gunnery, projectile deflection plays a larger role and actually increases the effective thickness of the armour beyond the slope alone. At least, according to that site I posted the link of, I can't find the book online to check for myself.

Offline kingtiger1891

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Re: Development progress?
« Reply #284 on: 17-08-2013, 06:08:14 »
One site, this one, quite clearly states that real world normalisation values would be positive

Actually this article didn't tell a much different story:

Quote
“normalization” gets higher values with a greater shell diameter (that means more mass per mm²). In other words: Small calibers are worse against sloped armor.

That means angle has less effect on the penetration of large calibre shells(large compare to the thickness of plate it penetrates). That's why a 75mm or 88mm AP should penetrate an APC even it's hit on 10 degree.

Besides, angle mod of FH2 doesn't bounce the shell. If the vehicle's meterial can be damaged by a projectile, it will "absorb" it, though the angle mod may decide taking less damage.



When you hit the upper purple part of the Stug, in reality the shell should bounce into the frontal superstructure. In game, the shell would be absorbed by the purple part and hardly cause damage because of angle. Same thing happens on the model of PzIV, Cromwell, vehicles like Panther, Hetzer have less problem.
« Last Edit: 17-08-2013, 06:08:45 by kingtiger1891 »