Author Topic: Panzerfaust  (Read 13161 times)

Offline Flippy Warbear

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Re: Panzerfaust
« Reply #15 on: 07-09-2009, 22:09:45 »
Its just pure bollocks that a sherman survives a faust or shreck to sides or back. But even M10 or Achilles surviving a faust to the rear? What the hell??

I can swallow the idea that a sherman only catches fire from faust to the front but sides and back? That is something I dont like. One of the only things in 2.2 that I dont like.
« Last Edit: 07-09-2009, 23:09:31 by Flippy Warbear »
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Offline VonMudra

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Re: Panzerfaust
« Reply #16 on: 07-09-2009, 23:09:06 »
Yeah, its currently BS....

ANd btw, the extra armour still does not stop the 200mm+ penetration of a faust or schreck, Knoffhoff.

I'm for one hit to side or rear chassis and turret unless you hit sandbags, and 2 hits to front, same deal, for BOTH schreck and faust.  Remember, these things were around 3 times as powerful as a bazooka....
« Last Edit: 07-09-2009, 23:09:57 by VonMudra »

Offline Kelmola

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Re: Panzerfaust
« Reply #17 on: 08-09-2009, 08:09:55 »
Yesterday night, I spent a long crawling in a ditch. Managed to get to the rear of an Achilles without the driver noticing. I bring up the Faust, aim for the exposed rear with no "applique armour" whatsoever visible. Boom. I can see flames, but the thing is still operational and reverses in panic. Fortunately, the noob driver only retreats a few meters before he bails out to make repairs so I headshot him with K98. I begin the long trek back to friendly lines -- only to be shot in the back by another Tommy who has appropriated the abandoned vehicle.

Now, I could grudgingly accept that a hit to the rear of a Churchill (like yesterday) does not even set it on fire, but Ronson really should "light up the first time, every time", not to mention lighter vehicles.

Plus the "applique armour" for Sherman's ammo compartment was only useful if it prevented penetration; considering almost anything in the German inventory in 1944 penetrated the side armour of Sherman the effectiveness of it was questionable and it certainly was not over 200 mm thick. For crying out loud, that would be more than Tiger II's front armour! Relocating the ammo and surrounding it with water ("wet" stowage) was a much more efficient way reduce the tendency to catch fire, increasing crew survivability in the case of a penetration to the ammo compartment. But it still did not stop penetrating hits.

And regarding the "usefulness" (or lack thereof) of the infamous sandbags...
Quote from: Wikipedia
In the only study known to have been done to test the use of sandbags, on March 9, 1945, officers of the 1st Armored Group tested standard Panzerfaust 60s against sandbagged M4s; shots against the side blew away the sandbags and still penetrated the side armor, whereas shots fired at an angle against the front plate blew away some of the sandbags but failed to penetrate the armor.

Offline Knoffhoff

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Re: Panzerfaust
« Reply #18 on: 08-09-2009, 10:09:30 »
Seems like some things need to be explained here. First thing you need to consider is that this is a game and in a game you need to take care that certain weapons don't destroy the fun. With the Panzerfaust you can kill any Tank ingame even when shooting at the mighty Tiger II's front armour, since like von Mudra says it is able to penetrate 200mm of armor. But in FH2 penetration shouldn't be confused with kill. How much fun is it for allied and german tankers when Panzerfausts, Bazookas, Piats, And Panzerschrecks 1s1k any tank that they are able to penetrate the armor? AT soldiers being able to hide almost anywhere because of the dense vegetation will give tanks no chance to survive.
All the AT weapons can penetrate the amount of armor they were able to do in real life. But the damage they do is depending on how big the difference is between the amount of armor they can penetrate and the armor they are actually penetrating. The bigger the difference the bigger the damage.
Atm the Panzerfaust is strong enough to instant kill any allied tank when hitting sides or rear except the churchill. Shermans will survive a shot to the front armor or on some versions parts of the side armor that have extra armor plates, tank tracks applied that enable them to survive a Panzerfaust hit. But you should keep in mind that they will loose almost all hitpoints and if they were just slightly damaged earlier it will be a certain kill. To 1s1k a Churchill it actually needs a little more effort. Find a good elevated spot and try to hit it from top. You will see it instantly go boom.


Achilles and M10 being reported shows me you are not using the weapons right.
You have to aim those weapons over the sights. Bazooka and Piat even have very useful sights coming handy for firing on different ranges.
Don't try to hit that tank that is on the other side of the map just because you are so skilled to use other things in your 1p view for aiming instead of the sights.
In real life all those weapons had a limited range. Unfortunatly you can't properly code the projectiles to drop after a certain range. Instead you can only affect the curve they fly. Using that to restrict the range of the At weapons leads to awkward ballistics. To restrict the range of those weapons without destroying the ballistic curve I had to do a little bit dirty coding (much less dirty as the messed up curves though). You are still able to shoot those weapons way to far. You can see the projectiles fly, but they will not do any damage to armor at ranges you are not able to hit aiming over your sights.
Use the sight and you will be alright.
« Last Edit: 08-09-2009, 10:09:06 by Knoffhoff »

Offline Ionizer

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Re: Panzerfaust
« Reply #19 on: 08-09-2009, 10:09:55 »
The only time so far that my 'faust hasn't killed a Sherman in one shot is when I accidentally hit the gun mantle.  It caught fire and the enemy bailed, but the Sherman didn't die right away.  I have one shotted a Sherman from the front with the 'faust at least once, though.

The PIAT on the other hand, takes me an average of 3 shots to the side (not hitting skirts) or rear to kill a Panther.  I can knock out a PzIVH with one shot to the side (again, the small parts not covered by skirts) or rear with the PIAT, but I haven't knocked one out from the front yet.  StUG is the same story as the PzIVH, one shot side or rear, more than three to the front (not actually having been able to kill it with front shots yet either).

So far, the Panzershrek has killed everything in one shot, and I haven't played with the Bazooka enough to notice how many shots it needs (other than one shot to the rear of StUG, PzIVH and one shot anywhere on Hanomags).

Speaking of Hanomags, sometimes when I fire a PIAT at it, it looks like it should hit dead on, but the projectile actually explodes underneath the halftrack, and makes it jump a couple feet in the air, but doesn't seem to actually damage it.  Weird...  I've mostly experienced it on Falaise Pocket, usually aiming at the halftrack with the second or third hole in the ironsights (the medium and longer distance shots).  It has happened with the first hole (close range), as well though.
 

Offline Kelmola

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Re: Panzerfaust
« Reply #20 on: 08-09-2009, 11:09:04 »
Concerning aiming, what has range do with penetration, as far as HEAT warheads are concerned? In any case, I'm not talking about "near misses" or something that "should have been a hit", only hits that I can see striking the target's armour dead on. The Achilles in my previous example was so close that I got the suppression and a flash of red, less than 5 meters away. And even so, I did use the sights just to be sure.

Like I said, I can understand and accept that a heavy tank like Churchill will keep going after a single penetrating hit (much like the Matilda/Valentine occasionally survives the satchel charge on engine deck). Having a thinly armoured tank destroyer, or a medium tank that was known to catch fire easily, to withstand Faust hits to the rear is what provoked me to complain.

As far as "hitting power left after penetration" is concerned, the Faust and Schreck were clearly superior to the Bazooka and PIAT (in addition to having twice the penetration power), so direct comparison between them is not really appropriate. With a Bazooka or PIAT I don't even expect a 1s1k, they usually didn't do that IRL, unlike their German counterparts. Plus, you only get one Faust in the kit, whereas all the others get reloads.

Offline Knoffhoff

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Re: Panzerfaust
« Reply #21 on: 08-09-2009, 11:09:36 »
Concerning aiming, what has range do with penetration, as far as HEAT warheads are concerned?
I was talking about dirty coding. Of course on a heat projectile the damage power doesn't decrease penetration power in real life. But certainly those weapos have a maximum range you can fire them in real life. For the Panzerfaust 30m the maximum range would be somehwere around 50m. Ingame though you are pretty much able to shoot as far as you want when you aim high enough. Especially with bazooka, panzerschreck and piat which have projectiles that travel much straighter as the Panzerfaust ones do. Removing the ability  to damage on in big distances is the dirty trick to limit the range those weapons are useful. It is not very nice solution but as long there is no other proper way to restrict the range you can actually fire the projectiles this is the best thing to do.

Quote
The Achilles in my previous example was so close that I got the suppression and a flash of red, less than 5 meters away. And even so, I did use the sights just to be sure.

I'd really like to see a video of that action. I can't recreate it ingame. I checked the collision mesh of the Achilles, even though it has slightly to high armor applied on the back of the turret there is no chance for that tank to survive a Panzerfaust hit, nowhere.



Offline Flippy Warbear

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Re: Panzerfaust
« Reply #22 on: 08-09-2009, 11:09:08 »
Always so difficult knoffi...

Is it fun for a stalking german infantry man to get only one chance to blow the tank away and even thought he is an experienced tank hunter and knows the ropes, makes a perfect shot and the tank only lights up in fire? Not much fun there!

And Kelmola just said it did survive. So what? You think he is talking bullshit??
I've reported these things so many times but always they play the "hitbox" or "you didnt do it right" cards.
« Last Edit: 08-09-2009, 11:09:42 by Flippy Warbear »
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Offline Knoffhoff

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Re: Panzerfaust
« Reply #23 on: 08-09-2009, 12:09:19 »
I'm testing it ingame and I'm doing the math and the result is always the same. Achilles doesn't survive a panzerfaust shot. Might really be that you and he are talking bullshit. Or maybe I'm just to stupid.
Anyways, you want me to do more about it? Then show what you do and maybe I can clarify what the issue is.

You think you are a experienced tank hunter? I think you need more practice. ;)

Offline DLFReporter

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Re: Panzerfaust
« Reply #24 on: 08-09-2009, 12:09:05 »
I'm with knoffi here.
Piat and Fausts are awesome weapons atm and nerfing them would really upset things.
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Offline VonMudra

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Re: Panzerfaust
« Reply #25 on: 08-09-2009, 17:09:50 »
How can you be with knoffi, we're the ones who don't want them nerfed....


As I said, knoff, I'm all for shermans and all tanks taking the 2 shots to the front, and heavy tanks 2 shots all around, but shermans should be a one shot on side, rear, and back armour, not matter if it hits the stupid applied armor that did nothing to prevent a HEAT shell from ripping it apart, and taking it to almost dead if you hit tracks or sand bags.  I'm sorry, but you're making things easier for tankers at the expense of the ability of Panzerfaust and Panzerschreck gunners to actually make a kill.  They honestly get only ONE shot, faust all the time, and schreck most of the time, and if they hit and the tank doesn't die for some unrealistic reason, then all their incredibly difficult work is moot.

Offline Fuchs

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Re: Panzerfaust
« Reply #26 on: 08-09-2009, 17:09:48 »
If I can't take it out with 1 shot, then atleast give me 2 Fausts so I can give it another shot.
"Force answers force, war breeds war, and death only brings death.
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Offline Knoffhoff

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Re: Panzerfaust
« Reply #27 on: 08-09-2009, 19:09:59 »
How can you be with knoffi, we're the ones who don't want them nerfed....


As I said, knoff, I'm all for shermans and all tanks taking the 2 shots to the front, and heavy tanks 2 shots all around, but shermans should be a one shot on side, rear, and back armour, not matter if it hits the stupid applied armor that did nothing to prevent a HEAT shell from ripping it apart, and taking it to almost dead if you hit tracks or sand bags.  I'm sorry, but you're making things easier for tankers at the expense of the ability of Panzerfaust and Panzerschreck gunners to actually make a kill.  They honestly get only ONE shot, faust all the time, and schreck most of the time, and if they hit and the tank doesn't die for some unrealistic reason, then all their incredibly difficult work is moot.

Yes I already red that you like the idea that shermans take 2 shots to the front. But as I explained earlier the damage is being dependent on the armor you hit. And the fact is that those reinforced spots on the side in reality and in the game more or less have the same armor thickness as the front of the tank has. Therefor it needs the same amount of hits if you hit those spots and if you are consequently following a system how armor penetration and damage works this is the only right thing that should happen. You think it is that hard to just aim a little lower to the tracks, or a bit left to weaker armor or go behind the tank and it it there? You are using the most powerful and one of the most easy to use hand weapons that is ingame and I don't think it is asked to much to take a second and think before you shoot.

« Last Edit: 08-09-2009, 19:09:32 by Knoffhoff »

Offline VonMudra

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Re: Panzerfaust
« Reply #28 on: 08-09-2009, 19:09:32 »
And in combat, when the tank is probably moving, and you have people shooting at you, you tend to just point at the general hulk of the tank and fire.  You don't HAVE a second.

Offline Lobo

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Re: Panzerfaust
« Reply #29 on: 08-09-2009, 20:09:32 »
If I can't take it out with 1 shot, then atleast give me 2 Fausts so I can give it another shot.

And maybe a free visit to the Paris red light district?