Author Topic: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45  (Read 22753 times)

Offline ajappat

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #300 on: 02-11-2012, 20:11:03 »
I had these odd bounces even against trucks. maybe the shells are bugged?
You were likely just shooting some part that doesn't take any damage. You need to hit engine or chassis to deal damage.

Offline CHRISTIEFRONTDRIVE

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #301 on: 02-11-2012, 20:11:29 »
I have had some really bad issues the past few days:

- 2 M10 normal AP shots (76mm) bounced off enemy half-track from 100m, no effect
- 2 Marder APCR shots (76.2mm) bounced off the side of a Crusader to do no damage (Crusader hit me twice and only the 2nd shot did damage)

Dunno if it's related, but the Panzerschrek has a horrible time against Allied armor now. On Totalize 2 hits to front of Cromwell seem to do no damage (not sure though). But on Brest, I had horrible "luck". One shot does no damage to APC, just bounces off the windshield. Another shot bounced off the side of a Stuart, and then a third shot off the front did no damage (but a hit to a similar location was a 1-shot KO a few minutes later). The absolute worst was against the 76mm Sherman.. 1 shot to top of the turret (from 3rd story up in a building) did no damage. 2nd shot set the tank on fire. 3rd shot did no damage. Went back for more ammo. 4th shot did no damage to the front of the hull (tank still on fire driving around). 5th shot to the front of the hull again did no damage, and a 6th shot from my original position hit the engine deck and again, nothing.
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Offline x4fun ODIUM

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #302 on: 03-11-2012, 00:11:43 »
Looks like you really battle communicated there. I feel your pain, man, I really do...

*raises brofist expecting fistbump of shared-battlecommunication-pain*
Kind Regards / MfG
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Offline Butcher

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #303 on: 03-11-2012, 00:11:22 »
Looks like you really battle communicated there. I feel your pain, man, I really do...
I had to laugh so hard! ;D
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Offline Surfbird

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #304 on: 03-11-2012, 00:11:46 »
Infantry anti tank weapons indeed seem to suffer. As this is my favourite activity, I realize that it's a bit frustrating here and there, but well, I don't want to cry to much about it, just stating my experiences:

The Panzerschreck seems to be the biggest problem of all anti tank weapons and seems to be completely useless sometimes. Shot more than enough Shermans in the back and only made them burn, sometimes it bounces off too, which also happens with Panzerfaust 30. Panzerfaust 60 and 100 still seem to be "fine", I think it might be because the projectile on 60 and 100 has more speed and does not hit in weird angles as often as the Panzerfaust 30. It's not always like that though, have blown up a Cromwell with a 30 two times yesterday, but had games before where it always bounced (and I did not shoot the front). Well, Cromwell is reported to be buggy anyway, so...
I also remember always making British Sherman V and Firefly tanks only burn with Panzerfaust 30, but had less problems blowing up US regular Sherman tanks. Probably intended, as Sherman V and Firefly have thicker armor at the sides especially ? But I can't remember what it was like in 2.4 with these and if it's normal that they survive a Panzerfaust 30 shot (I guess it's alright when I can't blow up a firefly with it compeltely, not sure about Sherman V though) I just noticed that the Panzerschreck shots I fired lately hit Sherman V and usually bounced or made them burn as well. Dunno about the US versions, my feeling tells me they work better for the Panzerschreck as well.

Would be nice if someone could tell me about the Sherman V/Firefly armor thicknesses and if a Panzerfaust 30/Panzerschreck should kill them or the burning is alright and intended.

Was also using Bazooka (M9) a few hours back and noticed it bounced off Halftracks quite often and I was not able to blow up a PIV with a shot in the rear and one in the side (that the shot in the side didn't do (much) damage is okay though, as it had skirts) Does not feel good when you manage to sneak around the tank, hit in the rear, you even manage to take another shot to the side and tank gives a shit and kills you :(

Only thing you can trust on is the engineer class for tank hunting, preferably the German Geballte Ladung. This blows up what it is supposed to blow up. Should be the ~ the same with the other explosives, no problems there. Also I did not notice as many problems with the Piat, it probably work properly but I'm not too sure about it, did not use it too much lately, but I think it's quite fine.

Furthermore my personal feeling tells me that M1 Bazooka works better than M9 Bazooka. Both don't work as they should imo, but the M1 Bazooka seems to be more reliable, but I also might get that feeling out of random luck/misfortune with each of them.

I'll stay vigilant and see if I can make more observations that confirm my impressions about the whole AT weapon theme.

Offline CHRISTIEFRONTDRIVE

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #305 on: 03-11-2012, 07:11:57 »
Nice post Surfbird. I echo the sentiments that (unfortunately) engineer kit is much more useful for taking out tanks. 3kg geballte will take out near enough anything with one blast, and Composition B has also been beefed up (in 2.45 you can kill a Panzer IV with one of them to the engine deck - in 2.4, you definitely needed 2, and occasionally required 3). Compared to bazookas and the Panzerschrek, engy kits are the way to go. The only tradeoff is that the rocket launchers can harm from a distance, while geballtes and such require you to get close to the tank, but the tradeoff is more than made up for by the fact that rocket warheads typically bounce off or are unsure kills, whereas a simple toss of a green box destroys the tank. I should note though, that the 1kg geballte could probably be beefed up a bit, since on Crete I have now several times used the cluster grenade, put it directly on the top of a Vickers light tank, and it's only started it smoking. Keeping in mind the Vickers tank can be knocked out with the bare hands kit if you smack it hard enough, the 1kg geballte seems a little weak.

While I can't comment on bazookas (don't use them often enough recently), for whatever it's worth I really want the Panzerschrek to be given it's 2.4 glory again.

My reasoning:

- Panzerschrek is not spawnable, meaning you cannot just respawn if you're killed chasing the tank
- You also can't respawn to finish it off (unless you want to trade your dignity for a satchel)
- Panzerschrek is extremely difficult to fire straight and requires hours of practice to reliably shoot even a stationary vehicle. In my opinion, the least you can do for a guy who actually manages to hit something with it is reward him with a kill (assuming it would have been a kill in real life of course. In 90% of circumstances, it would be)
- Panzerschrek still has only 3 rockets, and it's really frustrating when even 3 hits (supremely difficult to achieve at distance) aren't enough to finish a tank.
- Panzerschrek typically is only found at main bases (eg. St. Lo, Falaise Pocket). Bear in mind this means anyone using a schrek @ St. Lambert flag or Les Foulons, for instance, has traveled for several minutes to get where he is, and done a sufficiently-admirable job of avoiding all mortar, artillery, rifle, enemy tank etc. fire. To do all this and watch your rocket consistently bounce uselessly off a tank's ass like a snowball thumping off a blind girl's face is disheartening.

To be fair, I completely understand that the game needs to be balanced and some things are (and should be) toughened up or watered down slightly to keep the game fun. I also know, and I can't stress this enough, that I'd rather have the schrek/fausts/zooks as they are (weaker than they should be), than to have them all be lazer-guided missiles that kill everything with 1 shot (overpowered), because it means more to make a difficult kill than a bunch of easy ones. If everyone can do it easily all the time, like throwing a grenade into a trench, then it wouldn't mean anything when you do it perfectly. I definitely don't want that. But as it stands now, killing a tank at long range with the Panzerschrek is a noteworthy achievement, it's just that it's for the wrong reasons. It's memorable because now you have the added coin flip of whether it will do the damage it's supposed to or not, when really, just getting your timing right and aiming cherry fine should be enough. I feel like when I hit a Sherman with a schrek from 100+ meters, I should award myself an honorary kill, even though I usually don't actually destroy the enemy vehicle. If you hit the applique armor then fair enough, a good player will learn to aim for spots of the tank without tracks and extra wheels, but there ain't no applique armor on a half-track, despite the fact it seems like every American I see zooming across a field in his Purple Heart Box has re-enforced the armor with ten inches of fucking diamond.

I should state very quickly that for the record, I don't mind the unreliability of some aspects of tanking/anti-tank work in FH2.45. The fact that not *everything* is an instant kill is okay with me. Every so often, as in real life, the stars align in the right way, and what should happen on paper doesn't necessarily translate to the battlefield. But with the Panzerschrek, it happens so rarely as to be thoroughly irritating.

You have to..

1 ) Be on the Germans, which isn't always possible
2 ) Hope no one took the schrek (good luck getting your hands on it with 55 players on your team)
3 ) Sneak through usually a very long distance and somehow manage to stay alive
4 ) Locate a tank before he sees you and one HE shell splatters you across the Normandy countryside
5 ) Take up a good hunting location
6 ) Estimate the tank's movement and trajectory (i.e. guessing where he will be in 5 seconds. Hint: he will probably be laughing)
7 ) Bring up the sights and start counting Mississippis
8 ) Spit out a quick prayer, since you can't see anything besides a green smudge in green grass through your green iron sights
9 ) Fire away, hope you've steadied the sway, hope the tank hasn't randomly stopped moving, and so on

At this point, when you've done all this while avoiding enemy fire (and on the 128 server, the even more deadly teammate fire), it seems just a little unfair that you should also need to trust the game mechanics to grant you a kill, when you have painstakingly earned it. At this point in the story, as you sit in a bush with a giant green dildo slung over your shoulder, watching 88mm kisses bounce off the papier mache side armor of Sherman, it doesn't seem right that you don't so much have to hope for Lady Luck to smile on you, as you instead have to hope for her to strip naked and bend over the nearest hedge for you.
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Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #306 on: 03-11-2012, 12:11:34 »
Lightning stated somewhere else that the coding of the Shreck is indeed bugged or wrong. Other guys mentioned that they can 1s1K a Churchill  with it, so there might be a problem with the armor materials of the Sherman and how they react to certain shells.

The problem with PzFaust 30 is, that the projectile is extremely slow, thus leading to more bouncing shots especialy on little slopes. Who ever tries to kill a Sherman with a Panzerfaust 30 to the rear armor has a death wish. The chance that you bounce off a little object (wrench, sandbag ...) or don't deal enough damage is so high, that I wouldn't ever think about it. My advise: learn to aim and always engage from the side ;D. 100% 1S1K. With the Panzerfaust 60 or 100 the projectile is fast enough to not bounce off. Have you ever tried to kill a Sherman with a 105 mm HEAT shell of the StuH or the Wespe, if the Sherman is in movement? A pain in the ass, as I can tell you and the same problem as with the Panzerfaust 30 (slow shell etc). Always wait untill the enemy isn't in movement.

Since the anglemod was introduced in 2.4 Faust shots tend to bounce off from the rear armor of tanks. But that's the case for all weapons. I always try to enage a tank from the side, never from the rear. Some of tanks have even stronger rear armor than side armor.

Despite all this should a hit by a Panzerfaust disable the tank. In FH2 this means a kill. Same applies for the Shreck. As infantry playing agaist tanks is quite frustarting and difficult, I see no point in punishing the tank hunters even more and not rewarding them for patience and good aiming.   

Offline Slayer

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #307 on: 03-11-2012, 13:11:40 »
Nice read, Andrew, almost poetry what you wrote :)

Offline Surfbird

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #308 on: 03-11-2012, 14:11:41 »
Nice read indeed and thanks for explaining the issues with the Panzerfaust and sloped armor 5hitm4k3r. Now that you say it, I notice I usually succesfully killed Shermans with a shot to the side of them, not with shots to the rear.

Offline Erwin

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #309 on: 13-11-2012, 13:11:15 »
Faust and Schreck shots usually does less damage if you fire into a moving Sherman. I don't know if it's related to angle mod, but if you shoot moving tanks with those, they more likely burn.

Also, another thing I might add, is the dreadful tank reverse speeds.(Not in plain field of course.) But even the smallest hill could led you in tears if you try to back up. 
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Offline Butcher

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #310 on: 02-12-2012, 17:12:21 »
I made a short video about the problems I think occur in 2.45.

The first engagement is between me in the StuG IV versus a M4A1 Sherman on short range.

Problem: The to strong frontal armour of the Shermans even at short range.


The second engagement shows me in the Panther versus 2 Shermans and one Cromwell at range.

Problem: The range modifier - I hit one Sherman 2 times,  one Sherman 1 time and the Cromwell also 1 time to no effect with my Panther. Even for experienced players it´s hard to hit anything on thse ranges, so you should not get punished for hitting those tiny targets. I had to close in to fight the allied tanks, to get immediately shot to pieces by the players that should be dead. Gloeckner is not pleased by the fact I bailed - but I got out of the situation. He should have been knocked out before anyway ^^.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7OUIp63kXM&list=HL1354466034&feature=mh_lolz
« Last Edit: 02-12-2012, 17:12:58 by Butcher »
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Offline hyperanthropos

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #311 on: 02-12-2012, 19:12:19 »
The hell the Stug is onehot for the 76 Sherman!? While at the same range you cant kill the Sherman with one shot nice.

Yeah alright I have to say the second part of the video cant explainmuch since the Shermans are very far away and you could have hit them anywhere.

And yeah bailing is for losers! Hate it.

Offline Butcher

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #312 on: 02-12-2012, 19:12:45 »
The hell the Stug is onehot for the 76 Sherman!? While at the same range you cant kill the Sherman with one shot nice.
2 shots weren´t even enough.

Yeah alright I have to say the second part of the video cant explainmuch since the Shermans are very far away and you could have hit them anywhere.
With a Panthers gun it shouldn´t matter. You clearly get the red hit indicators. Even frontal hits should do the job. Same goes for Fireflies etc. My point is I play this game for years and I might say I´m experienced and quite good at aiming. You see it´s not really easy to hit anything and then you don´t even get rewarded.

And yeah bailing is for losers! Hate it.
A lot more common with version 2.45. This however wasn´t a case of senseless bailing in the middle of nowhere. I got out alife and surfived and could attack the flag as infantry. Gloeckner should have been toast anyway.
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Offline Kuupperi

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #313 on: 03-12-2012, 18:12:02 »
About bailing: why would you stay inside a tank that is about to explode by the next hit? I have destroyed several abandoned tanks and I have no problem with that. People keep whining about bailing because they don't get the scores they "deserve". Why not just be glad you took the enemy vehicle down?

Picture this; you are inside a vehicle, you get hit, your vehicle's health bar is extremely low. What do you do? Do you really stay inside the vehicle to die "honorly" or do you bail out to live at least a few seconds longer and maybe do some damage to your enemy?

Sure there are many opinions about bailing but I see it as an appropriate thing to do. Even it was me to destroy an empty vehicle. There are pilot kits for pilots and they have parachutes. Why? Because you could bail out from your extremely damaged plane and not to die in it. I don't think the devs created the pilot kits just for fun.

Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #314 on: 03-12-2012, 21:12:46 »
About bailing: why would you stay inside a tank that is about to explode by the next hit?

It is one of the unwritten laws of FH2. If you bail, you are a pussy, if not you are an accepted pro ;D

I for one bail sometimes, but when I feel that the enemy deserves the kill I stay inside the tank and bring it to an end. There is no reward for me in staying inside a tank and surviving 3 or more unlucky shots and then start to bail if it is getting a bit hot.

But at the end it is up to everyone to do what they want.