Author Topic: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45  (Read 23037 times)

Offline Butcher

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #285 on: 18-10-2012, 15:10:07 »
What leads you to the assumtion that most players prefer the style of 2.45 and not the style of 2.4 regarding the tank system? To me it seems to be more than just 20 persons who disagree with the new system.

Let´s face it. If someone new comes to FH2 - a mod based on an old game - it is because he is interested in the setting and most likely has some knowledge about it. Everyone else plays the latest games.

The initial spirit behind FH2 was to create a more realistic version of BF1942. With the latest tank system you turned away form those intentions that established FH2. - And I´m not talking about hardcore realism either, but a game influenced by realism to the extend 2.4 was. It worked fine imo -  but for sure better than the current one.
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Offline Horstpetersens

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #286 on: 18-10-2012, 15:10:19 »
amen

Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #287 on: 18-10-2012, 16:10:19 »
What leads you to the assumtion that most players prefer the style of 2.45 and not the style of 2.4 regarding the tank system? To me it seems to be more than just 20 persons who disagree with the new system.

Let´s face it. If someone new comes to FH2 - a mod based on an old game - it is because he is interested in the setting and most likely has some knowledge about it. Everyone else plays the latest games.

The initial spirit behind FH2 was to create a more realistic version of BF1942. With the latest tank system you turned away form those intentions that established FH2. - And I´m not talking about hardcore realism either, but a game influenced by realism to the extend 2.4 was. It worked fine imo -  but for sure better than the current one.

To be precise, 52 people voted for a change of the tank system, not 20. This is almost a full server. Would be interesting if the poll wasn't locked. But I guess the devs are already taking a look at the tank system, when I read Natty's last reply. I see a glimpse of hope atleast.

Offline DLFReporter

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #288 on: 19-10-2012, 08:10:56 »
I don't know why Butcher goes off on a tangent with Djinn, he is just a tester like me and no dev.
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Offline Natty

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #289 on: 19-10-2012, 08:10:35 »
The mistake that ancient FH2 devs did was to make the system too complex with too many variables. That's a totally normal mistake to do for people just starting out with amateur game design, everyone does it. (Just like new mappers spam the entire map with small planks, chairs, pots, pans etc)

Just looking at a complex game which is only about tanks, WORLD OF TANKS, our tanks are set up in pretty much the same way, with just as many different materials, small parts etc.... a tank in FH2 can easily have 10 different materials, same as in WoT

The difference is: they have a designed, real damage system for these tanks. We haven't. We cant shoot out parts of the tanks, we dont have the same scoping/sight mechanics, we dont have 3P camera making you more aware of the surrounding, we lack pretty much everything we need to make those materials useful.

It's done wrong to put it simply. The result is not "realism" it's annoyment. It's unpredictable behaviour with the tank, it's either getting 1s1k when you dont expect it, or unable to hurt enemy tank when you do expect it. It's getting no feedback if you even hurt him. It's aiming at a 50x30 pixel tank at distance and manage to hit him, but projectile hit some minor detail you cant even see, so now you sit there and "guess" if he received any damage. It's driving a tank that doesnt feel like a tank, it's being able to snipe infantry with the coax while at the same time being 1s1k by grass-ninjas. It's a system that fails a little on all points, pretty much the only thing that works as intended is the sights and the ammo-switch system. The rest is clunky, rough and un-engaging as it is. OK OK, it's not all bad, you still have fun and exciting rounds, dont you? I mean... the wtf moments dont take up more than say 30% of your overall tanking time, the rest is actually quite cool, isnt it? Otherwise you wouldnt be playing, or?

So we need to iron out all the annoying "wrong" things, make it more predictable/controlled/consistent, make an easier manageable system that allows us to easily go in and do these "fine tunes" that you say make FH2 so special. The problem right now is, we can't. We lack the "levers" to pull to put it simply, because our system is mega-complex and is using to many paramaters which alters the outcome of each shot. This what we will start to simplify, so that we can manage the system like we want - and as you like it as well. When Im saying simplify, you immediately jump to game-results (obviously since you only interact with the game while gaming, interestingly always refering to a completely other game from 2002) but Im talking about simplyfying the system so we can control it more easily. That is why things like materials, velocity, penetration (non existent term), damagedrop, deviation needs to be consistent and possible to overview easily.

I hope that cleared up some of this confusion, I think we sometime talk about different things here.
« Last Edit: 19-10-2012, 08:10:56 by Natty »

Offline LuckyOne

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #290 on: 19-10-2012, 08:10:00 »
^ Ok but we have already concluded that people mostly hate "weird" stuff happening at close range (i.e. less than 150 m let's say), on loger ranges they can live with the occasional bounce and bad hit detection.
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Offline Natty

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #291 on: 19-10-2012, 15:10:39 »
yep agreed, although 150m is considered "long range" in the BF2 engine

Offline djinn

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #292 on: 19-10-2012, 15:10:42 »
Within that range, an error with the damage system may mean an unfair death.
There is little chance to manoeuvres away unless you are very close to cover.

Beyond 150m, its possible to keep moving and hope the next hit is a miss.

Offline Natty

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #293 on: 20-10-2012, 10:10:52 »
well, not really. It's a gradient, and it starts at 75m.. but anyway

Offline Oberst

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #294 on: 20-10-2012, 20:10:43 »
How does the damage modifier work and what was it in 2.4? Is it linear?

Offline Eat Uranium

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #295 on: 20-10-2012, 21:10:34 »
The range damage modifier will reduce your damage linearly from distance A to B.  2.4 and 2.45 tanks do full damage from 0-10 metres distance, then drop linearly with distance to their minimum damage, which takes effect from 300+ metres.

Quote from: ...\Battlefield 2\mods\FH2\objects_server.zip\weapons\Projectiles\Vehicleguns\vehicleguns.tweak
Code: [Select]
rem mindamage = caliber in cm  x 6
rem damage = 50 + caliber in mm (for automatic cannons like 20mmL55 on Pz II damage is set to 30)

Then you have the anglemod, which will reduce your damage if the angle your shot hits is greater than 60 degrees from normal.  Not entirely sure if the reduction is linear or exponential or just a step function from 0% to 100% though.

Finally, you have the effect of materials, which are used to simulate armour thickness and shell penetration.  These are rounded to the nearest 10mm (nearest 5mm below 30mm).  Basically, if the shell penetration is less than the armour thickness, then no damage is done.  If it is equal, then damage done is modified by x3.75; if the penetration is 10mm more, then x5.25; 20mm more and x6.75 etc.



There are also sandbag armour materials that act as +10mm thick for AP, +20mm for HEAT.  Skirt armour is +5mm for AP, and +30mm vs HEAT (also with a much reduced gradient).

In 2.4, the trend was exponential rather than linear.  This was the only significant change I think.
« Last Edit: 20-10-2012, 22:10:06 by Eat Uranium »

Offline x4fun ODIUM

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #296 on: 21-10-2012, 02:10:30 »
Okay there we might have one of the problems.
So basically we do the same penetration now in 2.45, but the "health bars" we eliminate by doing so are fewer, now.

Because now, with sufficient (=exceeding the necessary value in mm) penetration the damage we do only rises linearly, no more exponentially.

And some tanks who should not survive (Sherman hit by a Panther from 30 meters) now do survive.
Did I understand that right?
« Last Edit: 21-10-2012, 02:10:22 by x4fun ODIUM »
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Offline Butcher

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #297 on: 27-10-2012, 14:10:58 »
It´s not all about the range modifier, there are also some issues on short distances that didn´t occur in 2.4, not even with the angle mod. Shots bounce although they should be a kill (at least imo).

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Offline Erwin

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #298 on: 02-11-2012, 16:11:09 »
I shot Cromwell point blank range with Tiger's 88MM gun to the side and it's just laughed at me like I throwed an arrow to it.  :'(
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Offline muratti

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #299 on: 02-11-2012, 19:11:24 »
I had these odd bounces even against trucks. maybe the shells are bugged?