Author Topic: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45  (Read 22749 times)

Offline LuckyOne

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #255 on: 17-10-2012, 11:10:44 »

You're just describing good game play here. A kill isn't the ultimate goal here, disabling an enemy threat is.

But how can I "disable an enemy threat" when that threat shoots me back in the face when I was clearly supposed to win...  ::)

The pictures just shows various scenarios of tank v tank or tank v infantry interactions, I have no problems with the game playing out like that.... 3 zooks is OK. We had huge problems in 2.3 and earlier patches with too many and too lethal AT guns running around and lol-shotting tanks all the time.

"Running around" with static AT guns.... yeah right... ::)

 The result was that tanks just camped and spammed HE shells in to the towns and CQ areas, as it was pointless to engage closer. We aren't making that game, we want everyone to feel engaged in the action

So now they can camp and spam HE shells from the towns and CQ areas, as it's impossible to kill them with nerfed AT weapons... Long or short range... gj! Heck I see Unique getting scores over 100s every single round of Brest, PeB or any other "CQ" map.
This sentence is intentionally left unfinished...

Offline Erwin

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #256 on: 17-10-2012, 11:10:24 »
What's the problem between FH 0.7 and this tanking system? I mean 2.4 was not that bad it was close to 0.7 style and everyone was happy.

Back in the day(0.7 days) we were helpless against a KT and Tiger unless you get a good zook user or Firefly, M10 and 76MM. If you see those in regular Sherman(might as well add Panther) you were just sitting there and waiting to be killed.  You also need to work your ass out to flank them. Why is it so bothering people now we need so drastic changes to make German tanks like paper? Or boosting up Shermans to become a Tiger themselves?

Now I see Sherman 75mm charges head to head against Tigers, no fear at all, because they know even a 2 shot to the front will finish the job. I couldn't believe first time I got taken out by a 75MM Sherman, I shot it twice with 88mm gun, one bounces off, other one sets it on fire and in the meantime Sherman finished me off. You use PzSchreck, you know with big projectile(Which even blows up T34 very easily) is bouncing off from Shermans back/side, oh yeah because it's more fun. Not even mentioning Fausts.


 So arcade. Might as well play BF1942 all over again.

(I'm giving out examples from Fh 0.7 Because Tiger, KT or Panther were never been strong on FH2 since the first version)

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Offline djinn

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #257 on: 17-10-2012, 12:10:33 »
I think you both have a point. Its not right for a Sherman to get 3 side shots from a PAK38 or PAK40 and still be amongst the living - Let alone for it to swivel round and 1S1K me, the PAK gunner.

Its NOT good gameplay.

However, if players are too scared to use tanks as the massive killing machines they were supposed to, that TOO eint right.

So as I've been saying, its a fine line we are yet to reach, not 2.4, NOT 2.45.
But something between the two.

Offline Natty

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #258 on: 17-10-2012, 12:10:38 »
18 pages, and what is your conclusion? except "me dont liek" or "fh1 ftw"

Offline Erwin

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #259 on: 17-10-2012, 12:10:45 »
I gave examples from FH1 because FH2 tank system never met the demands. It's gone better and better but with 2.45 that went upside down. Actually that's is why everybody talked for 18 pages.  ;D

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Offline djinn

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #260 on: 17-10-2012, 15:10:44 »
You're both being a bit simplistic, IMO  ::)

FH1 was a DIFFERENT ENGINE. Even if you used the exact same values of FH1, you wont get the same result.
Mimicking FH1 damage system in 'feel' is not so easy because I THINK that's what the devs have tried to do since 2.0. Its less mimicking then trying to 'get it right'

And 2.45 was NOT total wrong. Like Natty said in his next to last post, there were real considerations that led to it.

Can we get off the partisan lines so the next few posts, and pages may be more constructive in finding a 3rd way maybe?

Offline Erwin

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #261 on: 17-10-2012, 18:10:20 »
We already suggested a 3rd way. Bring back last tanking system(unless you make this bug free)and add more tanks to the Allies.
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Offline djinn

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #262 on: 17-10-2012, 19:10:43 »
Last tanking system is what Natty spoke against.  ::)
Tanks standing outside the town of Eppeldorf and firing into it while circling because they know any one thing can kill them instantly irrespective of how awesome their tanks is.

WE NEED A BALANCE BETWEEN THE MULTI-SHOT KILLS & REALISTIC 1S1K TO MAKE IT WORK.

Offline Butcher

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #263 on: 17-10-2012, 19:10:42 »
18 pages, and what is your conclusion? except "me dont liek" or "fh1 ftw"
18 pages in the third thread about the same topic. Including a locked poll with obvious tendencies.

With other words you mean "Get used to it!" That´s not really a better answer than "Learn to aim!" or "That feedback isn´t representative!".

I will never get used to the new tanking system, although bailing and not getting a virtual death is funny for me when I cowardly jump out of my tank. From the following pictures, none of the guys outsmarting/outplaying/ambushing my Sherman got a single kill.

You're just describing good game play here.
The "funny" I used should be replaced with the word "retarded". That´s how it feels. In previous versions I would have got killed in those situations and believe it or not, that would have been more fun. In the current version where I bail in almost every engagement and thus often surfive, I feel like a cheater. I know the opponent should have gotten the kill, but I used a dirty trick.

The result was that tanks just camped and spammed HE shells in to the towns and CQ areas, as it was pointless to engage closer.
I have to strongly disagree here! Right now tanks can rape infantry even more than in previous versions. A good tanker will still be cautious and keep his distance spamming HE shells into spawns etc. The only difference now is that he can most likely stand a shot from either a PAK/Pounder or Panzerscheck and stay there longer spawnraping.

We already suggested a 3rd way. Bring back last tanking system(unless you make this bug free)and add more tanks to the Allies.
I have to sign that! Best suggestion to fix the tank system.
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Offline djinn

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #264 on: 17-10-2012, 19:10:26 »
lol. But that's one of the TWO ways. You guys need to recognize an impasse when you see one.
Natty says No, there are reasons for the current system,
Y'all say, NO, the 2.4 system was perfect.

That doesn't give much room for advancement, does it?
And... 2.4 was NOT perfect lads. Look back and you'd find complaints.
Its just so easy to take a system you preferred and call it PERFECT with 20:20 hindsight.

3rd way equals a position that both sides agree is good. We aren't there - Wont get there if you all keep entrenching.

Offline Butcher

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #265 on: 17-10-2012, 19:10:15 »
That doesn't give much room for advancement, does it?
And... 2.4 was NOT perfect lads. Look back and you'd find complaints.
Its just so easy to take a system you preferred and call it PERFECT with 20:20 hindsight.
The strange thing is back then there were already complaints that certain tanks stand to much shots, like the Panther to the side or Shermans with the german 75mm/L48. Yet - despite the complaints in version 2.4 that some tanks surfive longer than they should - someone decided to go the opposite direction.
He got banned for our sins. He was not the member FH forums deserved, he was the member we needed.

Offline Musti

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #266 on: 17-10-2012, 20:10:05 »
As we know, a good compromise leaves everyone unhappy. 2.4 tanking system was hardly perfect, but it was million times better that this crap.
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Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #267 on: 17-10-2012, 22:10:30 »
Musti, please stay a bit more constructive.  :-\

Believe me, I feel your pain, but calling things crap will not bring us much further. What I would like to add and take into consideration by the devs, is that the goal of the FH2 devs should be to offer a unique experience gameplay wise. Otherwise people will choose BF3 if the gameplay is equal. And making a Sherman a 3S1K is clearly a feature that leads to this. A Shreck or a PzFaust that needs more than one shot on a tank will not make the tanks move more. Guys like Unique will be even more annoying for new commers. Shrecks are pickup kits and not spawnable. Fausts can only be used one time btw, so you will have to find some ammo before trying to give the Sherman his second and deadly shot. Trust me, this doesn't work in FH and you will kill the mod this way.  :'(

It is much more important to stabalize the playerbase than gaining new players currently. I see so many long timers in the score boards of 762 or the official, who left the game with 2.45. Do you know, why people still play DH - a mod for a damn old game? Because it has unique gameplay. It looks like sh*t at the first view but if you get more into the game it is very nice and there is nothing comparable out there.

Yesterday I felt the first time like in BC2 while playing FH2. Odium and me were sitting on the backside of Horstpetersens' tank and constantly repairing him. He was face to face with a Panther and we exchanged alot of shots. The concept is cool for the interaction of the players, but it will make FH2 much more equal to newer games with better graphics - and this will be for sure the death of FH2.

... repairing a tank goes too fast btw.  ;D

Natty, you will have to find a way wich rewards the player who makes an effort. 1S1K was the rule in FH2.4 and kept the battle fluid but we also had shots wich bounced off or with reduced damage.
The player wants to see that his action leads to a consequence asap and that the battle is dynamic ... this means not fighting the same enemy for five minutes.
But more important was the fact that every asset had it's unique role and it was interesting for new players to find something that is fun and fits their gameplay. And this is a point where FH2.45 fails a bit.

Why fix something that isn't broken? 2.4 tanking system had it's flaws too (Cromwell and the Marder especialy) but overall it worked excellent. Why not tweak the buggy tanks wich were reported and concentrate on other things like buggy hitboxes or force all development on new fronts? New fronts and changing battlefields keep the players interested. New fronts are comnnected with new toys to play with

... this is the excitement about Forgotten Hope.  ;)


Offline Natty

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #268 on: 17-10-2012, 23:10:30 »
5 minutes? that's a silly exaggeration isn't it?

"The player wants to see that his action leads to a consequence asap and that the battle is dynamic"

Indeed, and should be for both parties... Sitting and watching a hole in the hedgerow and click LMB to score a 100% guaranteed kill is not dynamic. It's static and predictable, and only lead to "camping" behaviour, where tankers get kind of anal and protective of their tanks (waiting 2minutes for it to spawn, then sneak around like some scared cat)

When you know you will have time to retaliate/react if you get hit, game play becomes more active, tactical, interesting and dynamic. That is the difference between A: a "realistic" but anal and "number-crunching" 1S1K system and B: a dynamic but somewhat less "realistic" but more fun (for both parties) system.

A: is fun for 20-30 players who know all the tank metrics and tables etc who can LOL at the n00bs who "dont get it"
B: can be fun for hundreds, even thousands normal FPS players, people who like active games, shooter fans, but perhaps not masters of WW2 tank models and penetration tables.

Guess which one I'd pick?

Offline Flippy Warbear

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #269 on: 17-10-2012, 23:10:02 »
Talk about biased attitude.