Author Topic: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45  (Read 23072 times)

Offline Natty

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #195 on: 08-10-2012, 17:10:35 »
eh, what? 1s1k on the stug front, no way.

Offline djinn

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #196 on: 08-10-2012, 17:10:59 »
Depends. I've 1S1K a skirted Stug with a Sherman from front, not sure if it was even a 76mm.
I think it was a well placed shot in a lower section or other. If its realistic and there are a few such spots, I think its reasonable, but if not, yer, that's a bug...

Offline Zoologic

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #197 on: 08-10-2012, 17:10:28 »
The StuG is probably have damaged anyway, who knows? Because it has wondered so far from its original spawn position (the train station), perhaps there are some infantries firing Bazooka at it or another tank fighting with it.

Indeed I fired a HVAP shells at its frontal armour, dead on. He was down the hill, I was at the top, move forward a little, have my aim adjusted and boom! He died.

Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #198 on: 08-10-2012, 19:10:37 »
eh, what? 1s1k on the stug front, no way.

Why not? I know that you want to have a battledialog, but the M10 is a tank destroyer. You know what this means? Light armored, fast and agile, with a strong cannon and suitable ammunition (HVAP). That's the charm of playing such a tank. It has it's own role. The M10 relies on his strong cannon, otherwise it is a deathtrap. Please don't make every tank feel like each other. I want to feel the difference while playing an M10 and an M4A1 with a 76mm.

If you guys want to 1s1K a StuG IV with full HP from the front, you will need a 76mm or stronger. The 75mm wil never kill a StuG from the front with one shot. I tested it often enough and I am 100% sure about this case.

Offline Natty

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #199 on: 08-10-2012, 20:10:19 »
Why not?
Because the game becomes better if you need 2 shots

Played FH1? Stug was perfect there

Offline Butcher

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #200 on: 08-10-2012, 21:10:23 »
Where I don´t get the picture: You want the tank battles to last longer, so paper Shermans take more hits. But then why in gods name do Hetzers get damaged frontally by about just everything. Those things were impenetrable frontally to 76mms up to 300m. Yet in FH2 76mm and even 57mms and Bazookas damage them frontally. If you want tank battles to last longer give the Hetzer at least its correct frontal armor.
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Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #201 on: 08-10-2012, 21:10:52 »
Why not?
Because the game becomes better if you need 2 shots

Played FH1? Stug was perfect there

Do you need 2 shots on the M10 with the StuG? Certainly not ...

If you shoot with a HVAP at it, it is totaly OK. It is interesting for the player to choose the type of ammunition according to the situation and available targets. As a player you will ask yourself several questions while driving the M10:

1. Do I have a proper postion?
2. Do I risk two shots with normal AP shell to save the better ammunition for stronger targets like the Panther?
3. Will I hit every shot so I wont get killed? (If you don't have more than one HVAP round for example)

There is no need to change this. Or you make the M10 a 2S1K aswell, but this will just feel odd if you ask me. As I said, it needs two tanks to have a fight.

There is no sense in comparing FH2 with FH 0.7. I could kill StuG with two shots to it's front with a normal 75mm Sherman aswell, same as we have it now. The difference is, that we had no different types of ammunition for one tank. This is the essence of tanking in FH2. Why do you want to change something, that makes it extremely interesting? Special ammunition is rare and limited per tank, so you still have to use it wisely and not blast every target you see with it. Please don't touch this.
« Last Edit: 08-10-2012, 21:10:20 by 5hitm4k3r »

Offline Oberst

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #202 on: 08-10-2012, 23:10:02 »
In my opinion we dont need to go back strait to the 1s1k system we had in the past.
But whats the biggest difference between then and now is the range-damage modifier, which causes the longer tank fights. I think the purpose of this system now forces you to make a decision. Either to fight the enemy tank, you have seen now, or use cover, tactics... to get closes to it, to make a 1s1k. Nearly noone does this decision, because of lack of feedback what happened and how much damage you caused or not. Especially the bigger tank battle maps feel strange this way. You still can do damage over long range, there is even a hit indicator, but it is nearly upredictable for the less experienced, how much you have damaged your opponent. This combines with some strange hits, caused by angle mod. There is no indication how far the enemy is, there are different view distances on different maps, with even different versions of the same vehicle (for example sherman 2 and 5, early and late, or panzerIIIJ with short and long barrel on one map, even panzer III wiht additional armor). In the end there is a frustrated player talking about luck is what need to kill an enemy tank.

The next thing, which is quite frustrating are some small maps. Especially tanking on maps like Lüttich or Anctoville was so special, because of those WTF-moments, where you suddenly run in an enemy tank. And you are turning your turret like an idiot, who first aims and shoots more or less properly, should deserve the kill. So the damage on close ranges should be higher, for those 1s1k should be the most usuall outcome of a battle. Maybe even the range where maximum damage is applied should be a little bit longer. If angle mod and/or bad aimed shots still cause a change of like 10-20% survivability in those situations, its OK.

Offline djinn

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #203 on: 09-10-2012, 01:10:26 »
I really don't mind tanks taking less penalty for a hit especially a weird angled hit or frontal hit, although SOME hits should still be 1S1K, like a Sherman side shot like I did with the PAK38 should 1s1k the sucker EACH time, except if I hit the wheels or some lucky area where a shell would pass right through and miss EVERYONE

Also, a proper relative strength of tanks and armor on their various sides. For instance, if a StuG could be 1S1K from the front, depending on where you hit, good.

If not, then its a bug. And a Sherman CANNOT be tougher to kill than German tanks that were clearly more armored. Then you lose a gameplay element that is presenting players with 'expected results for an action'

Offline Kwiot

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #204 on: 09-10-2012, 14:10:19 »
Can sb explain me why Stug's frontal armor has been decreased? Standard Sherman can take 50% of his armor at front, which is ridiculous...

Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #205 on: 09-10-2012, 15:10:32 »
Can sb explain me why Stug's frontal armor has been decreased? Standard Sherman can take 50% of his armor at front, which is ridiculous...

The armor hasn't get decreased in my POV. The more important thing that got changed is the ammuntion of the 75mm Sherman. It doesn't have normal AP shells anymore. Those were replaced by the stronger APCPC rounds wich have much more power.

Offline Kwiot

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #206 on: 09-10-2012, 17:10:46 »
Can sb explain me why Stug's frontal armor has been decreased? Standard Sherman can take 50% of his armor at front, which is ridiculous...

The armor hasn't get decreased in my POV. The more important thing that got changed is the ammuntion of the 75mm Sherman. It doesn't have normal AP shells anymore. Those were replaced by the stronger APCPC rounds wich have much more power.

Hah, so now Shermans are more powerful than Stugs and Panzer IV...  ::)

Offline THeTA0123

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #207 on: 09-10-2012, 18:10:39 »
By many ways, sherman tanks where actually equal to PZIV/stugs. In some ways even superior.


People here have grown up from documentaries and stories that all german panzers where vastly superior. They everything german is vastly superior and better. I can see this simply by the way people respect things from the allies.
When a render of something allied is posted, the first thing you see often is people saying how there panzers are gonna rape it. You see dozens of people with German Avatars, sigs and such, but few with allied ones.
They kept breeding things like=An allied tank should be die when penetrated, a german one should not be

When this thread came to alive, it again showed people whining and crying about OOH MY LITTLE PANZERS CANT 1S1K ALLIED TANKS

BUT

what NONE of these guys posted, was that many allied tanks have the EXACT SAME THING GOING ON. A sherman 75mm needs 3 shots on the sides of a panther tank. A M36 Jacksons NEEDS atleast 2 shots on the side of a kingtiger. 2PDR armed tanks are back to 2.15 where the 2PDR needed 6 shots on the side to kill a Panzer 3. A 6PDR needs 3 shots on medium range for a panzer III/IV.

BUT do you see ANY of these guys? who so complain about there precious panzers, Do the same thing about the allied tanks?Nope.avi. They only care about one side. They do not care about the so called "Balance". This goes for WOT aswel. The folks there whine about german tanks being underpowerd...Wich is pure bullshit. Exept for a few examples (Jagdpanzer IV)


Maybe you guys need to Suck it up and accept the fact that german tanks wherent so powerfull as you imply they are.  If they where so almighty and powerfull, then these tanks should have wiped the floor with allied tanks. but they DINT. They got defeated. 4000 allied tanks destroyed in Normandy. 2200 German ones. Of these 4000 allied tanks, at least half got defeated by the powerfull and numorous Pak 40. Only 20% was destroyed by panzers. With 6% being from the panzerfaust and the remaining 24% or so being mines, artillery and others.
Doesnt sound almighty to me. Its a nice statistic, but one that doesnt confirm what you guys have been preaching on this forum for the past 4 years.

You wanna hear my opinion on this whole matter? revert back to the 2.4 system. Reduce some german tank numbers on some maps (IF YOU DO NOT AGREE ON THIS, THEN YOU DONT CARE ABOUT BALANCE AT ALL) and i think things should be back to normal.

As for numbers, i am reffering to maps like totalize, wich are still often an German victory(DONT COME WITH=I SAW THE ALLIES WIN YESTERDAY). On totalize, 14 allied tanks, of wich 3 have efficient guns, have to fight >11< german tanks, 7 pak 40's, around 5 Flak 88's, fausts and even FW 190's

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Offline Gunnerz

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #208 on: 09-10-2012, 19:10:29 »
I wonder if range affects the damage also ingame.
If this is the case then it explains alot.
Since a sherman can 1s1k a panther when its close etc.

Offline Butcher

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #209 on: 09-10-2012, 19:10:57 »
By many ways, sherman tanks where actually equal to PZIV/stugs. In some ways even superior.


People here have grown up from documentaries and stories that all german panzers where vastly superior. They everything german is vastly superior and better. I can see this simply by the way people respect things from the allies.
When a render of something allied is posted, the first thing you see often is people saying how there panzers are gonna rape it. You see dozens of people with German Avatars, sigs and such, but few with allied ones.
They kept breeding things like=An allied tank should be die when penetrated, a german one should not be
The usual paranoia... nobody here claimed that a german tank shouldn´t go down when penetrated. The Issue is that the front often couldn´t be penetrated by allied guns.

Maybe you guys need to Suck it up and accept the fact that german tanks wherent so powerfull as you imply they are.  If they where so almighty and powerfull, then these tanks should have wiped the floor with allied tanks. but they DINT. They got defeated. 4000 allied tanks destroyed in Normandy. 2200 German ones. Of these 4000 allied tanks, at least half got defeated by the powerfull and numorous Pak 40. Only 20% was destroyed by panzers. With 6% being from the panzerfaust and the remaining 24% or so being mines, artillery and others.
Doesnt sound almighty to me. Its a nice statistic, but one that doesnt confirm what you guys have been preaching on this forum for the past 4 years.
2200 german tanks - of which a huge part got blown up by their own crews. FH2 depicts the battles in which tanks actually fought and not the logistic part of the war.

Some got blown up by aircraft (a lot more than allied tanks - if at all).

And nearly the whole Panzerwaffe didn´t make it across the river out of the falaise pocket. That´s one operation and nearly all Panzers lost were left behind and not - and thats where FH2 takes place - lost in actual combat. "After the battle, Allied investigators estimated that the Germans lost around 500 tanks and assault guns in the pocket, and very little of the equipment that was extricated survived the general retreat across the Seine."

So congratulations on your numbers and not explaining how a very big part got lost in almost one single operation.

StuG IIIs had estimated 20.000 tank-kills at the spring of 1944... and this number is referring to a larger period of time than just the normandy campaing (some months).

I´ve also seen your vids on the shooting range where you proudly refer to the Luger as "german crap". I don´t know what it is but you seem to have a big germanophobia :P.

Edit: but I agree on the part that 2.4 tanking should come back with less german tanks, or at least no FW190 (three of them on one map is outrageous).
« Last Edit: 09-10-2012, 20:10:10 by Butcher »
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