Author Topic: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45  (Read 22796 times)

Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #150 on: 03-10-2012, 02:10:41 »
@Natty: I explained most of these problems often enough and detailed enough and it doesn't take much imagination to get the problem.

One example for you:

Random deviation: the trajectory of your shot is not predictable. It is easy at that. Too much exaggeration how the shells fly. I can't even hit the same spot at 50 metre, though I don't change my aiming. Good example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ5yqEyLciI

Offline Natty

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #151 on: 03-10-2012, 07:10:56 »
design takes more than "imagination".... please answer all the questions I made, otherwise Im not sure you actually put more thought in to this.. is it just "emotions" we're talking about here?

The video you made.... what's the problem? You're killing a sherman from the front with 2 shots most of the times, sometimes even 1 shot? Also why do you have the sight so low? You wouldn't play like that.

Do the same video with the sight where you'd have it while playing.

Good example though. I would design that specific example so that the Sherman on the 2nd shot was brought down to "critical" aka be burning, red etc.

Look at it like this: It's always better to "almost die" than to "just die". IE: say a Sherman has 1000 HP, it's better that each shot from the front delivers 450 HP in damage than 500. With 450 he will be down to 100 HP, burning/red and need to retreat and repair (if he is less than 5 seconds away from cover)
From the side, I'd give each shot 700 damage there, so he'd be very damage from one, and dead for sure on the 2nd.

Deviation: OK agreed, that was your point, but your video displayed more drop than deviation right? I agree that tank shells shouldnt deviate like a MG or SMG, but shouldnt be lazer-cannons either.

So to summarize: Tank combat needs to be more consistent and predictable. You should be rewarded by learning different tank-variants and to shoot at enemies on certain parts of the tanks, but the granularity we currently have is too "noisy" AKA too many small parts containing different materials, make it impossible to aim at certain parts. Agreed?
A tank should be divided in to: Front, Side, Back, Turret, Tracks. Have different material/properties on all these, and that's enough to create interesting tank combat.
Also: deviation needs to go, instead a slight more bullet-drop on ranges needs to happen. FH2 is scaled a lot down, so I would start the drop at 300m and have it gradual (not a quick drop). Then also add a damage reduction at ranges, so your tank becomes powerful at close ranges. I totally agree that if you drive up to an enemy tank, or encounter someone around the corner, it feels way cooler to one-shot him than to stand like monster-trucks and bang your head against eachother. On very close ranges (0-30m) I would even accept the PZIV 1s1k the Sherman from the front and vice versa. These are 'holy fuck' moments where you just panic-shoots and the outcome is expected from both parties.

Also consider visual spectrum. A tank on close range covers more of your screen, so you need to aim (move the turret) more to change the aim. EX: drive around the corner and see enemy tank standing at 45degrees facing you. Your turret is accidentally pointing straight at his frontal armor. In order to change this sight you need a good second to place the aim on his side instead. Do you take this chance? or do you fast fire straight in to his front? The front-hit can make him survive, but the side-shot will surely kill him at this range.
Those types of choices need to be clear, it really isnt more complicated than that.

On longer ranges, where the enemy is just covering perhaps 100x60 pixels on your screen, you really arent interested in small parts of the tank armor. It's enough to know if you hit the side, the tracks, the turret, the front or the back. The calculations you're doing shouldnt have more variables than:
Range: 300m, affecting aim with slight bullet-drop (need to aim just a bit above) perhaps on 300m the drop is 5-10 pixels on your screen, not more.
Speed: the enemy tank is moving, so need to calculate this also
Tank-area: you want to hit him in the side, but if you aim bad the shots can still hit his front, or the turret, or tracks.
Damage-reduction: is slight, since you dont know exactly how far away he is, this is the only real "randomness" you need. Is he on 2-shot-kill distance, or is he at 2-shots-will-make-him-criticallly-damaged distance? If you place your shot perfectly.
Also: ammo type, what ammo is loaded?
Lastly: how is he feeling? currently it's hard to tell on an enemy tank what state he is in.. is he 100% healthy, or already took a shot from some infantry? This will ofcourse change the outcome of your battle as well. (I'm currently working up a system that will tell you better what state the enemy tanks are in)

All these above, do you really need more granularity than this to create fun tanking in FH2?
« Last Edit: 03-10-2012, 07:10:59 by Natty »

Offline LuckyOne

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #152 on: 03-10-2012, 10:10:16 »
No, no Natty we actually like the "randomness" sometimes, but the truth is, it doesn't work in FH 2. As the tanks suffer no actual penalties from being hit.

I'll post the official tank mechanics guide for Men of War (yes I know it's a RTS even if it does provide the option for the player to control the vehicles directly, but it shows how randomness can work out, provided there are other mechanics to supplement it, namely in MoW: module disabling, crew stun, crew damage, ammo storage explosions etc.) In total there are over 1000 different sort of combinations that can happen in MoW.

Here's a short paragraph on how it works:
Quote
For instance, a Tiger shooting at a Stuart will cause a:
100% chance of damaging the hull
100% chance of destroying the hull
90% chance of damaging the turret when penetrating the turret
9 seconds crew stun time when penetrating the hull
40% chance to kill the charger when penetrating the hull
25% chance to kill gunner when penetrating the hull
100% chance kill driver when penetrating the hull
25% chance kill commander when penetrating the hull
25% chance kill AA-mgunner when penetrating the hull

Quote
And a Tiger shooting at an IS-2 will cause a:
20% chance of damaging the hull
35% chance of destroying the hull
70% chance of damaging the turret when penetrating the turret
6 seconds crew stun time when penetrating the hull
30% chance to kill the charger when penetrating the hull
25% chance to kill gunner when penetrating the hull
100% chance kill driver when penetrating the hull
25% chance kill commander when penetrating the hull
25% chance kill AA-mgunner when penetrating the hull

Quote
Of course all this comes together with whether a shell will penetrate a tank in first place, depending on the enemy tanks armor, your tanks gun strength and penetration table, as well as impact angle of the projectile.

Obviously we can't even remotely replicate this kind of system in FH 2, so a more simple system you described in your post would be better suited for FH 2.

But currently I think the biggest issue, as has been said in numerous posts of mine and others, and as you concluded  is the close range damage. It's just ridiculous for 2 tanks to stand 200 feet between each other and plink shells back and forth, when such situation should mostly be clear instantly (flanking attack or a good shot in the less armoured part of the vehicle by a superior gun).
« Last Edit: 03-10-2012, 10:10:26 by LuckyOne »
This sentence is intentionally left unfinished...

Offline Natty

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #153 on: 03-10-2012, 13:10:32 »
60 meters is quite far in Battlefield 2 though.. you'd be surprised how far away that looks in-game

But I get your point :)

Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #154 on: 03-10-2012, 15:10:46 »
Natty it seems that you understood most parts, but you failed at the most improtant part.

You ask me why I aim so low? Because I am aiming for a weak spot, infact when the shell hits the nose of the hull - there you will have the best chance of a kill as there is the slope not so heavy. As you see it works sometimes (when I 1S1K the Sherman). For your information: ofcourse I would aim so low and search for the weakspot ingame. As I do it with every other tank. A newby wouldn't do that, but after some practice he would do the same.

So what's the problem: you said it yourself. Sometimes I kill it with 1 shot and sometimes with 2 shots. Why is it like that? ->because the trajectory of the shell is not predictable. Even when I am standing still, take my time and the target isn't moving. The shell as spread around the center point, but this is totaly nonesense. In Darkest Hour or RO I can hit a tank over ranges of 500m or more (let it be 1000m) spot on on the same spot over and over again. Thus I can predict to aim for a certain part of a tank to kill it instantly. The guns in DH aren't like laser cannons btw. The trajectory is like a parabola. In case I missed a shot (what can and happen ofcourse), I can adjust my aim. I can even disable certain parts of the tanks piece by piece.

Problem in FH2: I like the fact that we can have such detailed tank models where certain parts and materials can influence the outcome of a battle. But in FH2 it is random. I can't predict, if I will hit material A with the first shot and do it with the second shot and not just accidently hit material B. As you mentioned it, the shell spreads more like a MG or SMG. The most extreme case of this are the cannon of the Jagdpanzer IV and the Pershing. I couldn't drive the Pershing but the gun was working and I tested it.
There are two other problems connected with this aswell. The tanks are sliding on the ground and the recoil of the tank cannon pushes the tank backwards after a shot. The tanks aren't heavy enough so that they don't move while firing the cannon.

Why is this so important for me as a player? Because it influences whether I survive a fight or not -> fun vs. frustration. This example in my video fits very well. If I don't kill the Sherman, because I have badluck and the shell spreads, he will kill me with one shot to the turret as my weakspot is bigger and easier to hit. This is a example, how FH2 works. It is very detailed, but that's how we players think.

I hope that clearifies the problem. A solution for the sliding would be do make seperate positions for the gunner and the driver as you did it for the PAK's. But I guess this will not gonna happen. If you don't want to tank together with someone you can atleast switch the postion and the tank won't slide around that much.


Offline Natty

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #155 on: 03-10-2012, 17:10:54 »
aha!
I understand your post and agree with it.

Learning weak spots, yes.
Deviation on tankshells, no... did we have this before? I never knew we added this, makes zero sense.

Your target was still and at 100m (or?) in reality he would be moving and you would be moving also, so you'd have "deviation" even if we turned it off. Being skilled and place a shot on weak areas should be rewarded, I totally agree.

Deviation and angleMod just screws with this. What's the point of learning all the weakspots if anglemod just screws with the damage all the time anyway? When it does work, that is.

I'm getting a clearer picture of what you like and dont like here, posts like that is valuable. thx.

Offline Mayhemic.MAD

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #156 on: 03-10-2012, 17:10:27 »
My comments on that last video:
Each shoot makes your whole tank shake, so that you have to readjust aim everytime.
A horizontal difference of just 0.1 degree between shots leads to a 8.7cm difference on the impact location after 50m.
It´s a rounded hull where the angled armour plates from top and bottom meet, so it´s a small spot for a head on hit. So I would never expect to cause exactly the same damage each time on that distance.
Considering all the other factors that realistically would also influence this, I like what I see there.

The only problem is then the panther dying easily by the shermans gun, when the large weak spot gets hit.
Thats a thing we can look into to make it less weak, or reduce size to make it harder to hit. But also here you have to consider if that just happens when engaging pros. I am a tank noob and don´t know where the weak spots are, so i would get owned no matter what tank i use. Against another tank noobs however, i get amazing intense tank battles now :)
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Offline Kwiot

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #157 on: 04-10-2012, 00:10:18 »
Pro's in 2.45:
-German tanks feel quiet good in terms of their armor and how they can get killed

So you claim that standard Sherman shooting Tiger with 2 shots is ok?

From close distance to the side it is totaly right. Was the same in FH0.7.

Strange, I don't remember that Tiger tank was a paper tank in FH 0.7... Maybe we played 2 different games?

So you can destroy Tiger with standard Sherman with 2 shots from side, but can't destroy Sherman with Panzer IV with 1 shot from side at close range... Yeah, that makes sense...  ::)

Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #158 on: 04-10-2012, 02:10:20 »
Pro's in 2.45:
-German tanks feel quiet good in terms of their armor and how they can get killed

So you claim that standard Sherman shooting Tiger with 2 shots is ok?

From close distance to the side it is totaly right. Was the same in FH0.7.

Strange, I don't remember that Tiger tank was a paper tank in FH 0.7... Maybe we played 2 different games?

So you can destroy Tiger with standard Sherman with 2 shots from side, but can't destroy Sherman with Panzer IV with 1 shot from side at close range... Yeah, that makes sense...  ::)
I wasn't talking about the armor of Sherman tanks. I said and please listen carfully "German tanks feel good in terms of their armor and how many shots they can take". You have to stay on the point while arguing and not mixing Tiger-vs.-Sherman with Sherman-vs.-PIV . The Sherman is coded too strong without a doubt, or atleast the german guns are to weak - it must be one of those possibilities. The Tiger was down in FH0.7 with two or three shots to the side by a normal 75 mm Sherman from close distance. Quite similar to the armor values we have now. The difference is, that the german tanks had really powerful guns in classic FH, as I would expect them to work. On the other hand do the allied teams have more tanks in general. But all this is history ofcourse. Just would like to get back this pattern.

Offline McCloskey

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #159 on: 04-10-2012, 13:10:24 »
Kwiot is an axis fanboi, disregard his posts ;D

Offline hyperanthropos

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #160 on: 04-10-2012, 18:10:43 »
Of course if your playing Axis everything you say is invalid, but if your playing Aliied mainly thats okay for your arguments or what?
But of course ieverything is axis bias in here.

Offline Natty

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #161 on: 04-10-2012, 19:10:24 »
anyone can switch team when he likes

Offline Knitschi

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #162 on: 04-10-2012, 19:10:24 »
I like the current tank system better than the old one. The only thing that feels wrong to me is the power of the 88mm gun on middle ranges (200m). IMO it still should 1s1k a sherman or cromwell at this distance. But in general I like it that you have a chance to survive longer in the weaker tanks.

Offline Butcher

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #163 on: 04-10-2012, 19:10:31 »
The other thread is locked. And now? Is the mod going to go the same road it did with the latest version? Are you actually taking the feedback into account? I didn´t mean to start a flamewar (although I obviously could count on that) and I apologize for that. But I don´t think we have to say "Yes and Amen" to everything going on, that´s what feedback is for. - The developers have of course the last word on this - but don´t wonder about shrinking player numbers then.
He got banned for our sins. He was not the member FH forums deserved, he was the member we needed.

Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #164 on: 04-10-2012, 19:10:02 »
Feedback is taken into consideration, especially concerning bugged hitboxes like the Cromwell etc. I can't speak for the devs, but from what they posted on here I don't think they will go back to the 2.4 system, that will simply not happen. But knowing Kev he will probably keep fine tuning the system here and there.