Author Topic: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45  (Read 23217 times)

Offline Kalkalash

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #135 on: 02-10-2012, 15:10:37 »
I think I'll chip in and bring opinion to the tank system discussion as well. I'm going to start with an event that happened the other day:

It was on Totalize and I had left the Axis base with my PzIV and was driving quite carelessly. A short distance from the base I run into a Cromwell manned by ajappat, and because I was driving all carelessly without paying attention to the surroundings, he managed to get a shot on my front plate. I'm down to three health as I shoot him back. He survives and shoots me again (to the front plate, I assume) and he bounces. I take my second shot and kill him. I proceed to hide behind a hedge and repair my tank.

Now, what is wrong with what happened? By all rights, I should have been the one dead. Ajappat shot me first and penetrated, he outsmarted me and I was careless. I should have lost. Natty, you asked why we liked staring at the spawn screen. Here's the answer: FH2 was one of the few games where losing from time to time was fun. How can losing be fun? Because you know you did everything you could, you used different tactics and you were outsmarted by someone. You lost a battle of minds, a fair battle. When you died in a tank, you weren't angry at the game, but angry at yourself for doing a stupid thing (Of course, some camper killing right as you exit the base isn't fun, but I'm talking about those normal tank-to-tank battles).

Currently, the tanking is more similar to WoT, where you sometimes penetrate, sometimes not and the damage you do varies a lot. The player doesn't get a clear indicator telling him when he is doing the right thing. There are so many hidden factors that you can't maximize your performance on a personal level. In WoT, if you happen to die, you very rarely blame yourself but you blame the game (I'm certain quite a large number WoTers can confirm this) and its mechanics. This is how I feel the tanking system works now. You now have a lot more "That is just bullshit" -moments than you had in the previous versions.

Just my 2 cents.
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” - George Carlin

Offline Natty

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #136 on: 02-10-2012, 15:10:49 »
our tank system is flawed, I dont disagree :) it is inconsistent and doesnt provide nearly as interesting / tactical / fun / exciting combat as tanks should. I agree to the fullest.

However, 1S1K is not the solution. To clarify; medium tanks or tanks of the same class, shouldnt 1S1K each other. Obviously a Tiger with its 88 gun should 1S1K a simple Sherman from behind, leave it burning in critical state (critical state is a hardcoded state when you have less than 15% health left) shot from the side and take it down to perhaps 25% from the front...

@gotkai, no offense, you obviously arent a dev or designer. battle dialogue is what it's all about. Not when you fire a Pak40 in to a sherman rear perhaps, but we dont gain anything from it 1s1k tanks from the front. The overall combat needs to be like a conversation, where players use the environment to outmaneuver the enemy, this defines battlefield game play, not just sitting and clicking to cash in frags.

Want to participate in development discussions, use internal forum.

Follow your train-of-thought please, explain to me the game play you have in mind.. tank comes driving from mainbase, blam, dead. Why is this fun for either the AT gunner or the tank driver? Why should he look at spawn screen then wait in mainbase again? Why durate the combat a bit?

Yes: stationary guns suck, I will replace more or less all of them with mobile guns.

But how utterly stale and stiff is the game play you propose? tank dies.. respawns.. drives again... AT gunners sits and waits.... where is the fun? it just boils down to a very simple and unintuitive player interaction here. He-who-clicks-first, wins. Our dev team were all pretty much all in favor of removing this game play.

Another example: tank guards a flag, waits for attacker... what reason does he have to move when he knows that he can 1s1k a tank that approaches? is it even fun? Click-DEAD... It's much more dynamic and fun if he has to reposition, has time to repair, time to react.

If the players choices change the outcome of the game. You suggest that sitting still and click first should decide. Well, it's predictable I give you that. And very very boring.

If there extreme "bugs" or flat-out errors in our tank system, you can specify this instead or argueing "ideals"... Use exact situations (map, vehicle, situation) and we can look in to it. Is some tank invulnerable when he shouldn't be? Is some tank dying too easy?

Overall, players pick FH2 mainly for the tanks, we aren't sending them to the spawnscreen, we send them in to the battle. That's our goal. 8)

Offline Natty

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #137 on: 02-10-2012, 15:10:28 »
@Kalkalash: best post so far, thanks! More of those please!  :)

Your situation should of course have played out so that he didn't die from your second shot, and then you'd be dead from this third.
« Last Edit: 02-10-2012, 15:10:59 by Natty »

Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #138 on: 02-10-2012, 16:10:47 »
Natty, allow me one question please.

Why the hell should the guy who tricked his opponent by an ambush or by flanking or sneaking up wait in the spawn screen? It needs two players to have a fight! To me and many others it is only fair that the player who was careless pays the bill and not the player who made the first effort to kill him. You have hundreds of possibilties, you only have to use them. Spoting PAK's for airplanes, spotting PAK's for arty and what not else. It turns out that FH2 rewards the dumb player more than the clever one in many cases and that the fights turn out more as head-on bouncing clashes.

Kalkalash hit's it spot on btw. Blame the game and not yourself if you get killed.

And Natty, please stop this I'm-a-designer-and-you-not-nonesense. I am the player on the battlefield who desides whether the game is fun or not. And why is the post by Kalkalash the best post so far btw? We tried to explain the problem for you in many, many posts, sometimes more detailed and sometimes not. He didn't post anything new that wasn't allready told. He only supports our argumentation.
« Last Edit: 02-10-2012, 16:10:07 by 5hitm4k3r »

Offline LuckyOne

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #139 on: 02-10-2012, 16:10:58 »
Nice post Kalakash, with one addition. In WoT you can still get one shot kills with an appropriately sized tank gun and with hitting the right spot (harder than in FH2 as there is more random deviation). While in FH 2 tanks are mostly coded with homogenous armor, so that even if you hit the "right spot" that should exist you still do the same damage as hitting any other area on the same side.

And of course, there's the module damage... Something that we don't really have in FH 2. That's why in my opinion we shouldn't be moving towards this kind of gameplay... As we will never get it as good as WoT. Whereas with the old 2.4 system FH 2 provided an unique tanking experience, where stealth, spotting, flanking and communication mattered more than being the luckier (or heavier) tank.

The solution that could please both sides could be making tank gameplay on closer ranges play out like in 2.4 (without the silly bugs) that would reward going in close (although with a much bigger risk of being quickly killed if spotted) and laying ambush, while on longer ranges we could keep the current scaled down system that would encourage maneuvering and discourage long range base camping. Something I believe the devs tried to accomplish, but it went totally in the wrong extreme of tanks surviving 88 close range hits and similar "weird" situations.
« Last Edit: 02-10-2012, 16:10:27 by LuckyOne »
This sentence is intentionally left unfinished...

Offline Kwiot

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #140 on: 02-10-2012, 18:10:20 »
You said Natty that you want to make tank battles longer. So how can you explain that standard Sherman can shoot Tiger with 2 shots from the side? Also Sherman surviving Panther or Tiger shots can be acceptable but only at long ranges (like it was in 2.4 I think).
Yesterday I saw such situation: Panther with side skirts vs. normal Sherman - distance 50 - 100m:
1. Panther shot first to Sherman front - penetration, but Sherman survived - I think it took sth like 50% of his armor
2.Sherman shot back to Panthers side with 90 degree angle - penetration
3. Panther shot again - I think tanker made mistake and shot Shermans turret (don't know why it is so powerfull, probably because round shape and angle damage system), but Sherman survived. But for sure there was penetration.
4.Sherman shot again to Panther's side and it's destroyed.

So Sherman makes the same damage like in previous versions, but Panther needs 3 shots to destroy it...
And the distance was quite close...


Offline Natty

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #141 on: 02-10-2012, 19:10:23 »
To clarify: I'm in this thread only because there is no other dev presence.

@5hitm... his post was good because it was ingame experience. Tell us what happens, and what you like / dont like about it, then we can make decisions based on those. Posting mathematical tables, diagrams and Wikipedia links do not produce any results.
Also, the designer stuff.. I dont mean knowledge/skill here. I mean work/collecting feedback/running the service... You're probably more knowledgable about FH2 tanks than me, but I need to think about a whole lot of things you as player don't care about. You come at it from a players perspective, and tbh sometimes put too much emotions in to it... it's just a game, and we're here to try and make it fun. We use feedback to make it more fun.

@LuckOne: problem in a nutshell with FH2 tanks is that there are way, way too many variables. It's quite impossible even for the most savant freak to learn all possible outcomes from a tank duel. That leads to too many "WTF" moments, either you die, or you cant hurt your enemy, or else.
Tank combat reminds a bit about RTS game play, you really are involved in a micro-game with the opponent, and I agree with 5hitmaker that a player who plans his moves, use terrain etc should be rewarded, but not to the point that that's the only valid choice. We had that, and the one who camped best, won. Just sitting and waiting for enemy hull to appear and send him to spawnscreen.. + the driving distance from mainbase on most maps... It lead to dull game play. Im talking about 2.3 and older patches here.

Kwiot: good examples. Those type of scenarios is something we can work with.

So: Please try to outline what you like about our current system and what you dont like
What was good in 2.4 but turned worse?
What was bad in 2.4 and turned good?

How can we reward players that learn the tanks and the maps, but still keep it simple enough so normal players can engage in tank combat without studying microscopic details and ammotypes?
How can we make consistency increase predictability, so by learning the tanks, you can easier know the outcome of a battle? (Like Kwiot when the Panther engaged the Sherman)

Offline Zoologic

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #142 on: 02-10-2012, 20:10:38 »
Well I thought I had outlined it much in the previous posts in this thread.

I even put a screenshot where my Tiger 1 tank survived a close distance shot from a Sherman Firefly. I also needed more than one shot to kill that weakly armoured tank with my massive Tiger gun.

So the improvements from 2.4 in regards to tank combat so far:
The prolonged combat make tank roles become more apparent, and infantries now interact with tanks more.
I love the new sound effects when getting hit.
The ambience noise cooler now.
The new gun sounds! They add more variety, but remains great, unlike FH1 which varieties just reduces its realism.

The minus parts:
Tanks have no characteristics now, Fireflies aren't problem solver, Tigers and Panthers just don't feel scary. You should consider giving 1S1K ability to certain tanks for sure.
While taking minor damage from grenades is realistic somewhat, it should be noted that tank shells should be equally more effective against oppositions. *cough*panzer 2's 20mm*cough*
Randomness can be fun, but it is not when you have to encounter it for nunmerous times.

Offline Kwiot

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #143 on: 02-10-2012, 20:10:34 »
Randomness could be fun indeed, but it can't break the rationalism line...

Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #144 on: 02-10-2012, 21:10:02 »
Pro's in 2.45:

-the Hetzer and the PIII verions got improved. Panzergranate finaly makes some damage. This was worse in 2.4.
-tanks don't get killed with a frontal shot to the tracks anymore
-German tanks feel quiet good in terms of their armor and how they can get killed

Con's in 2.45:

-all TD have too weak guns especialy M10, M36 and the Marder and StuG
-the Sherman has too strong armor compared to the strength of the german guns
-All stationary guns are deathtraps. Either give them more power (that would be my solution), or give more aditional mobile guns
-Biggest flaw for me is the deviation of the shells. I would completely remove this "feature"
-2pdr and PAK 40 are too weak in general
-The aiming system of the Jagdpanzer IV needs a tweak
-the Cromwell is still as bugged as in 2.4

That's all for now. Hope this is a good list with things to take a look at.

Offline Kwiot

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #145 on: 02-10-2012, 22:10:03 »
Pro's in 2.45:
-German tanks feel quiet good in terms of their armor and how they can get killed

So you claim that standard Sherman shooting Tiger with 2 shots is ok?

Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #146 on: 02-10-2012, 22:10:12 »
Pro's in 2.45:
-German tanks feel quiet good in terms of their armor and how they can get killed

So you claim that standard Sherman shooting Tiger with 2 shots is ok?

From close distance to the side it is totaly right. Was the same in FH0.7.

Offline Natty

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #147 on: 03-10-2012, 00:10:10 »
-the Hetzer and the PIII verions got improved
How?
-German tanks feel quiet good in terms of their armor and how they can get killed
Describe how they feel in their armor, or how it should feel when they get killed
-all TD have too weak guns especialy M10, M36 and the Marder and StuG
weak, meaning?
-the Sherman has too strong armor compared to the strength of the german guns
In what way?
-All stationary guns are deathtraps. Either give them more power (that would be my solution), or give more aditional mobile guns
Deathtraps, meaning it's too easy for tanks to lob shells at you and kill you?
What would more power solve? they wouldn't be harder to kill just because they deal more damage.
-Biggest flaw for me is the deviation of the shells. I would completely remove this "feature"
Can you give me an example?
-2pdr and PAK 40 are too weak in general
Is this a duplicate statement?
-The aiming system of the Jagdpanzer IV needs a tweak
Explain
-the Cromwell is still as bugged as in 2.4
Bugged, how?


Yea it's a good list, but as you see, design is harder than that.... you really need to clarify exactly what you mean. Please go ahead.

Offline Surfbird

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #148 on: 03-10-2012, 00:10:35 »
I'm not gonna outline good and bad, but I thought about the theme again, drove a bit around in tanks today and got some stuff to say that might be be interesting nevertheless:

1. As some people are exaggerating a bit it sounds like there is no 1s1k at all anymore but that is not true. There is still 1s1k in like 60 or 70 % of cases where it should be a 1s1k without doubt, at least that is what I experienced 35 or 25% where it does not happen are the problem, and the remaining 5% of lucky bounce or whatever are fine to me, because in theory a hit could go through without disabling the tank. You can't tell me that tank crews back then turned their turret instantly to search for new targets after their first shot, without checking if the bullet has penetrated and the enemy tank is destroyed. Bad luck can always occur and I think that Natty is right that the click and boom to 100% is not the perfect way either.
So from this perspective the current system is somewhat reasonable or more like understandable, but it looks more like a failed step in development currently.

2. On the other hand, making tanks take more hits for the purpose of giving the player more time in the tank and making tanking more forgiving, is the wrong way. And that's the point where basically everyone here agrees on. The joy of tanking does not come to people by making it less challenging and more forgiving. I think players want the challenge - I personally have no problem when I die in a tank because I know that this is always the danger and that when it happens it happens for a reason.

Conclusion
1. It's alright to have some kind of tiny luck factor involved.
2. It's not alright to make tanks take more hits to make tanking less frustrating.

The problem

For Patch 2.45 dev's seemed to concentrate more on "2." while I am sure you kept "1." in mind as well. This led to too much lucky survival of enemies which is unrealistic, does not make sense and does often not reward the risktaker, which is just sad.

My toughts/appeal:
Please think again if making tanks less vulnerable is the right way to achieve more joy at tanking, I honestly doubt it. On maps like Villers-Bocage tanking has a lot to do with mindgames and flanking as well as outsmarting the enemy tankers. In the situations I get into on a map like this I do not feel more joy because my Sherman V or Cromwell tank can take a Panther or even Tiger shot without getting blown up. It just feels wrong to me, because I know that this should not have happened.

And the Tiger or Panther driver who obviously outsmarted me is not rewarded for what he does and is most likely getting punished sooner or later because he gave away his position to more than just the one tanke he did not even kill.

Just one example of what my definition of joy at tanking is. And if you agree that the one that takes the risk should be rewarded Natty, then note that this does not fit well together with my 2. point I made, as this goes in the opposite direction and contradicts.
« Last Edit: 03-10-2012, 00:10:10 by Surfbird »

Offline Butcher

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #149 on: 03-10-2012, 01:10:28 »
-the Sherman has too strong armor compared to the strength of the german guns
In what way?
-All stationary guns are deathtraps. Either give them more power (that would be my solution), or give more aditional mobile guns
Deathtraps, meaning it's too easy for tanks to lob shells at you and kill you?
What would more power solve? they wouldn't be harder to kill just because they deal more damage.

Considering both problems, the Sherman having to much armour protection and the uselessness of anti tank guns, especially the Pak40 this video tells you more then 1000 words. If you seriously are going to tell me the Pak gunner should have lost that engagement I think we will never ever reach some common ground. Stronger anti tank guns don´t prevent the gun from being destroyed, but it gives it the possibility to actually ambush tanks and cause a threat. This silly engagemetn in the video wouldn´t have happened if the gun actually packed a punsh.

The video was obviously made in the 2.45 Italy event.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlgJ7PPFrtU&feature=relmfu#t=1m00s

Range? No.
Angle? No.
Realistic? No.

Three hits on a paper tank not finishing it off. Please explain me how that happened or how thats - in case this is intentional - is any fun?

Seriously ... just wtf is going on with FH2?
« Last Edit: 03-10-2012, 01:10:42 by Butcher »
He got banned for our sins. He was not the member FH forums deserved, he was the member we needed.