Author Topic: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45  (Read 22823 times)

Offline Natty

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #120 on: 01-10-2012, 23:10:00 »
Whoa whoa whooaaaa! Are you seriously telling me that this many-shots-to-kill bullshit is going to stay?
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Offline Musti

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #121 on: 01-10-2012, 23:10:19 »
Tigers and King Tigers being 2 or more shots to kill by powerful guns (76mm to the side, 17pdr. to the front), Shermans resisting many shots from dfferent AT weapons, way too high damage dropoff at "long" range etc. there are many examples of that.
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Offline LuckyOne

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #122 on: 01-10-2012, 23:10:43 »
currently Im not responsible for any tanks and haven't been involved in their coding, so pls dont ask me why specific models behave as they do, I only gave you our high-end goals, which was more fun tanking. Im sure anyone agrees that it's better since 2.4 than before, but still needs work to become as good as it could be

Yes, and the "work" it needs it's getting 1s1k back (consistent, not the occasional we have now)... At least on "close" range (I guess close in FH 2 terms would be below 100-150 m max).

Although it's totally bullshit from a historical point of view (damage done doesn't really depend on range, if a shell penetrates it will do roughly the same damage from 50 and from 500 m) it should reward players who take risks and use tactics to flank their opponents (or those who patiently avait in a perfect ambush position for enemy to get close).

We all like prolonged tank fights, but when you are outsmarted, or outflanked you shouldn't be given a second chance for your fun's sake as this only leads to frustration and anger of the other player...
« Last Edit: 02-10-2012, 10:10:20 by LuckyOne »
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Offline Butcher

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #123 on: 02-10-2012, 01:10:19 »
Musti, LuckyOne, Shitmaker, Kwiot are all long time players you see every now and then on the servers. They are part of the FH2 core-community. I consider their feedback quite valuable. They all state that the current tank system is frustrating. The longer tank engagements  are nice in theory but in practise, on the public servers where those guys are around often enough, it does not work.

I can only advise to take this feedback serious.

But then you state this:

We do still have the plague of portable guns 1s1k:ing tanks.... hope we can fix that soon.
Telling everyone here that the only thing somehow working in the current gun/tank system is going to be changed to the exact thing those experienced players warned you about.

well, it's quite arcadish to just click and kill anything you see.
So now you have to klick three times to finish off a tank. Right now we see tanks shooting peas at each other. It totally kills immersion if you see Shermans deflecting shot after shot or Panthers taking 76mm hits in the side. All the players see is a bounce here a bounce there. And this has nothing to do with realism, this is total arcadish.

The skill in previous versions was to find a good spot to ambush your enemy, or sneak around to flank your enemy and get off that effective shot in his flanks. - And this was realistic. This was also more realistic than Shermans standing in the middle of a field exchanging shots with Panthers in full frontal engagements just to zoom out for repairs and to come back 30 seconds later.

I´m for a poll!
« Last Edit: 02-10-2012, 01:10:56 by Butcher »
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Offline McCloskey

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #124 on: 02-10-2012, 01:10:47 »
Maybe I got something wrong there, but did Natty actually said they would nerf the AT guns as well? Why not just remove them then, for they'll be totally useless.

 ???

Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #125 on: 02-10-2012, 01:10:03 »
I think he means satchels? dunno

Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #126 on: 02-10-2012, 03:10:41 »
We do still have the plague of portable guns 1s1k:ing tanks.... hope we can fix that soon.
The only map I really feel the inf vs tank game play is anywhere near what it should be is in ramelle, but there it's bordering on being too extreme. In most maps you just lol at any tank and toss some zook shell at him.

Naah, the pro's with more resilient tanks outweighs any "realism" data by far.

If you really plan to bring up this bullshit, and please allow me to call it real bullshit, then I am out off this mod for sure. That's something you can bet your pants on. Infantry fight against tanks is so damn difficult and already frustrating enough as you get killed so damn fast by tanks. Why do you want to make it even harder? You really lost the sense for reality dear devs  ::)
I hope this isn't really in the pipeline  >:(

Offline Natty

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #127 on: 02-10-2012, 07:10:58 »
Tigers and King Tigers being 2 or more shots to kill by powerful guns (76mm to the side, 17pdr. to the front), Shermans resisting many shots from dfferent AT weapons, way too high damage dropoff at "long" range etc. there are many examples of that.

Those are exaclty the things we've worked a year and a half to put in to place :)

sorry but..4 guys wanting tanks to be killed by 1 shot will not change the course of direction here.

Tanks survive longer on the battlefields now, and most players like this.

Im curious though, why do you prefer to be killed and look at the spawnscreen more and spend more time in the back bases than out in the fights?

about AT weapons I mean both portable and stationary. One-shot-kill tanks with zooks doesn't play. Also the pak's and 6pounders etc shouldnt one-shot-kill tanks, it derives from the battle dialogue that we want to get back in to the Battlefield.
However, certain parts of the tanks like the small section in the rear could ofcourse be 1s1k, just like in bf42. But a shot to the side? naah, we dont gain anything from having tanks die so fast.

We need more tread time, not more spawn-screen time
« Last Edit: 02-10-2012, 07:10:48 by Natty »

Offline Gotkai

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #128 on: 02-10-2012, 08:10:56 »
What the hell are you talking about Natty? How many players do you know that like this system? Hundreds of posts should tell you the opposite. What are your sources? Who told you that this system is good?
All the complainments in chats while playing tell the opposite. So what are you talking about?

Making PAK´s less lethal make them close to useless. There is only one advantage of a PAK. It´s ability to hide and kill with one hit. Take the PAK 38 on Cobra between Trainstation and Crossroads as example. Completeley useless, maybe it can kill a Greyhound or a haftrack with a bit luck, but its inability to 1s1k a Sherman makes it useless on this map. The only thing your doing when you shoot a Sherman with that thing is saying: "Hi Mr. Sherman, here am I." Nothing more.

A battlefield is no place for a "battledialogue". PAK 36 was called "Panzeranklopfkanone", because it couldn´t penetrate many enemy tanks. Ask those soldiers how they feel about a battledialogue. Weapons are lethal and as such they must feel like that. Saying hello with the first shot is the wrong way. Those guys prefering this are free to play all the other egoshooters out there like Battlefield2 vanilla.

What do you gain from tanks last longer? Could work, but keep the balance between the tanks. Compare Churchills and Shermans and say that you wanted that. Hard to imagine.

Offline CHRISTIEFRONTDRIVE

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #129 on: 02-10-2012, 09:10:31 »
I would just like to say, please for the next patch on some desert maps can you include a Bren carrier with a 6-pounder stuck on top of it, just for me? :D.

Or better yet, a 25-pounder ;D?
« Last Edit: 02-10-2012, 09:10:05 by Andrew »
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Offline LuckyOne

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #130 on: 02-10-2012, 10:10:33 »
I would just like to say, please for the next patch on some desert maps can you include a Bren carrier with a 6-pounder stuck on top of it, just for me? :D.

Or better yet, a 25-pounder ;D?

Nah I want a Ratte... I mean why not, it's a tank after all! And it would surely provide a lot of "battledialogue" in between exchanging many shots with other tanks!  ::)
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Offline Butcher

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #131 on: 02-10-2012, 13:10:05 »
Thank you for your answers Natty!

Those are exaclty the things we've worked a year and a half to put in to place :)
Why fix something that isn´t broken? The previous tank system was very satisfying and rewarding. This work could have been spent somewhere else to continue the awesomeness of this mod.

sorry but..4 guys wanting tanks to be killed by 1 shot will not change the course of direction here.
It´s more than 4 guys... In every game I see someone call "bullshit". I think it´s very sad that the mod is going this direction.

Im curious though, why do you prefer to be killed and look at the spawnscreen more and spend more time in the back bases than out in the fights?
I prefer it because there is no sense whatsoever to fight on the battlefield versus tanks, outsmart them and not getting rewarded. That is boring. I fight for nothing. This has turned into Battlefield 1942 - fire shots, hit, repair, dont get points, proceed.

The time is now spent repairing and not on the spawn. And nobody gets points, except the smart people in their tanks HE-spamming infantry and ignoring tank combat.

I prefer getting points if I actually hit something and if someone outsmarted me, I fucking deserve to be back at the spawn; and he should get kills.

If you really plan to bring up this bullshit, and please allow me to call it real bullshit, then I am out off this mod for sure. That's something you can bet your pants on.
I wouldn´t say it that harsh, but I share this opinion. Way to punch your playerbase in the face and kill this mod. :(
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Offline McCloskey

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #132 on: 02-10-2012, 14:10:41 »
Also the pak's and 6pounders etc shouldnt one-shot-kill tanks, it derives from the battle dialogue that we want to get back in to the Battlefield.

You need to realize, that the crew is vulnerable to simple bullets and HE unlike the tank it's engaging and that unlike the tank, it can be taken out by everyone on the battlefield. Imagine this: you have a stationary Pak and a Sherman... now that Sherman drives up... gets shot by the Pak first, the Sherman sprays the Pak with bullets/puts an HE in there and drives along.


Tbh all was fine when the anglemod was introduced so it stopped Panthers from getting killed by Shermans to the front. The shots from the front "deflected" and it prolonged the lifespan of the tank. Tanks that were able to deflect shots like that should possess the same feature in game. Tanks like Cromwells should be shredded to pieces if assaulting directly and NOT outflanking the enemy positions. If you keep this BS "battle dialogue" then you also take away a huge amount of not only "realism" but the creativity players have to employ to outsmart the enemy as well (not saying people would stop flanking alltogether, but why drive around the map for twice as long, if you can just waltz in right up front taking damage from all sorts of angles while blasting away like a mad man). Players' stupidity should simply be rewarded with spawnscreen time is all.

Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #133 on: 02-10-2012, 14:10:17 »

Im curious though, why do you prefer to be killed and look at the spawnscreen more and spend more time in the back bases than out in the fights?


I prefere the old 1S1K system because it forces you to work together as a team and not drive a tank as a one man army. Covering your flanks and so on while moving ...
2.4 hit this spot on with it's system, 2.45 is a step too far though. 1S1K keeps the battle dynamic and fluid and doesn't lead to camping fests. It is much more intense for me when I know that I have only one single chance. Atm I drive around with the Shermans like in a heavy tank because I know that I can stand 2 or more hits. You just have to give the player enough room to move so that the spawn die, spawn die problem doesn't occur. Totalize is a good example how this should work. It is simple as that.

Btw, to say that most players like the current system is pure arrogant and I would like to see the source you base your argumentation on. All people I talked to ingame aswell as in TS and many people here in this threat, see this system the same way: it just doesn't work and leads to ridicioulous results. It is just sad to see, that you won't change the direction of the mod for the sake of the allready spent hours. It is time for the devs to confess that the effort to change the tank system to the current one failed and learn something with this experience. Mistakes can happen, but it would be nice if some people could start to stop refusing the reality. The playerbase is shrinking or atleast stagnating and not growing every day, don't know whether you have noticed this.

Just to remind you what FH2 is about:

"Forgotten Hope 2 is an award-winning not-for-profit World War II modification for Battlefield 2TM and is based on the original Forgotten Hope, a modification for Battlefield 1942TM, one of the most popular multiplayer games ever. Battlefield 1942TM featured land, sea and air combat in a way never before seen. It was the goal of the development team to maximize the game experience by adding both a realistic and enjoyable gameplay to FH and now to FH2."

Atm it fails in terms of both things too often and the words of wisdom are "arcadish" and "frustrating".  :(

Please wake up, dear devs
« Last Edit: 02-10-2012, 14:10:57 by 5hitm4k3r »

Offline Musti

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #134 on: 02-10-2012, 14:10:22 »
Those are exaclty the things we've worked a year and a half to put in to place :)
Welp then, I guess thats it for me then, Its your decision so I'm not gonna bother arguing.
Im curious though, why do you prefer to be killed and look at the spawnscreen more and spend more time in the back bases than out in the fights?
Because If i drive a powerful tank i like to feel its power, so what you have a giant cannon that can blow up a house if enemy tanks are shell-sponges? kills all the fun , besides I prefer flanking, sneaking and out-maneuvering
my enemy rather that boring face-to-face shell-offs (Africa for example), with many-shots-to-kill its simply not rewarding.

And one last question, If I want to play a game with shell-spongy tanks why would I play FH2? Why not just lets say BF3? Because ability to one-shot a lot of stuff (tanks, infantry, planes) was the thing that sold FH2 to me.
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