Author Topic: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45  (Read 23236 times)

Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #105 on: 01-10-2012, 13:10:42 »
But that's still the case. A Tiger is still better than a Sherman, it just can't 1s1k it in every situation. And now the veteran tankers are getting their panties in a bunch becuase of that. It's not enough that the Tiger is better, it needs to 1s1k as wel, otherwise all realism goes to hell :D

If you write that the Tiger I is still a better tank than a Sherman then you overlook a really important problem. The Tiger I and the Firefly are very good examples for this. At a certain range (infact when the Tiger starts to need more than one shot on a Sherman may it be agle + range) then you will get a quite funny phenomen:
Though your first shots hits the Firefly, the Firefly will win the engagement because of the faster reloading speed. And as a result of this you would get something like armor+17pdr of the Firefly is stronger than then the armor+88 of the Tiger I.

I have no problem with scaling down the system to the shorter ranges in FH2. But it isn't funny if I need up to five shots on a simple Sherman on Cobra at a range of 300 metre or less with a PIVH, no matter where I hit him - two shots to the front and one shot to the side would be OK. Same as it feels dumb if I have the perfect spot with a M10 90° at 50 metre and facing the side armor of a Panther. In such a moment I think: nice, I managed to flank him, good way to save one of the HVAP shells and to send him to hell with a normal round. But ofcourse the Panther only starts burning turns the turret a littlebit and shots right into my face. Same goes for all those poor bastards who drive a Marder or sit in a PAK 40 or 88. I don't know how often I shot one of them after I got ambushed - same applies the other way around. I see no way that I will get into a tank with a 2pdr anymore. I used the Daimler MK I and the Crusader on Alam Hlafa yesterday and fired like 20 shots into the flank of the advancing german force and didn't get a single kill. It makes the tank combat on the maps very onesided and in most of the cases it leads to stalemates than offering a nice fluid battle. In many cases the game is confusing me more than I can actualy enjoy it and play it in a relaxed manner.

The first very important step is to take out the random deviation of the fired shells ingame -> this makes the mechanics more predictable besides the fact that it is nonesense even with the scale in mind. Next step would be to tweak the damage values of the guns that are already mentioned in this thread. Last very important step is to fix the hit bugs and hitboxes (though this applies more to the inf gameplay).

On a final note: stop writing nonesense like "the mod is dead"! We have a quite stable playerbase atm enough to fill two servers. The only thing I fear is that we will lose more longtimers if the tanksystem gets developed into a more casual direction. And with the Eastern front in mind, where the tanks will play a very important role without a doubt, it will be important to optimize the system with the feedback of the players. The chance to get a wider fanbase, especialy when I look at other communities like RO/DH or RO2, is something that I wouldn't ignore.

Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #106 on: 01-10-2012, 14:10:25 »
About the Tiger vs Firefly issue: I looked in the files and it appears their reload time is identical (disclaimer: I'm no expert in coding, but they both have a 4 sec reload). And even if it was the case, this to me would mean tweaking the reload times, not the armor.
And the Sherman M4A3 (the one on Cobra afaik) armor was coded incorrectly in 2.4, it was coded like the M4A1 despite having better armor.

Offline Butcher

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #107 on: 01-10-2012, 15:10:33 »
Would anybody mind or consider it helpfull if I made a poll on how the forum members think about the tank system(s)? I´m asking because your decision has been made. I´ve however got the impression a (big?) part of the community was happier with the old tank system/faster tank battles. Making a poll without asking, feels like backstabbing the developers, who obviously have their plans with FH2. Then again it´s important how the community conceives the changes. I however would consider a poll interresting. Maybe I´m wrong and it turns out that most people are happy with the changes made/the direction the mod is going. It would  be vital feedback for the mod and the direction it´s heading to.

He got banned for our sins. He was not the member FH forums deserved, he was the member we needed.

Offline Kwiot

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #108 on: 01-10-2012, 16:10:46 »
2.4 tanking system was almost perfect - only sometimes appeared strange bugs where hits weren't marked... But now German armor became weaker... Somebody said that allied armor also, but I can't find any allied tank which became weaker than in 2.4... Standard Sherman can shoot Tiger with 2 shots from the side - it takes also quite big amount of armor health from <30 angle. So we're before 2.4 now, where Cromwell could do this... And Tiger often can't shoot M10 at front from distance <100m... Sherman received heavy armor on the ass - I think that the armor thickness of its back is the same as at front... And Panzerfausts 30 are completely useless - at least against allied tanks...  ::)

Offline Zoologic

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #109 on: 01-10-2012, 17:10:11 »
What do you mean by that? You obviously never tried North Africa.

My observation generally concludes that tank guns are less effective now, for both allies and axis alike. And powerful tanks like Matilda, Valentine, Sherman I, Panther and King Tiger in their era become more vulnerable. Previously, Panzer III J also have some invincibility against smaller guns like 2 pdr, now it was toned down a bit. The Pz III J now took damage from a shot to its frontal armour.

That is how it feels. My huge disappointment comes with how ridiculously difficult to kill a Cromwell. I remembered it just correctly, and yesterday in Operation Totalize map, my bro approached a Tiger and managed to damage it after surviving countless frontal shots from that bot driven tank, the Tiger engine compartment goes in flames (indicating that the point blank shot by the Cromwell's 75 mm to the rear is near fatal). My turn wasn't so lucky, my Cromwell was instantly one shot to the front by a Marder while I was trying to kill its crew with coax MG.

While Panther guns feels weaker now, its side armour seems to be upgraded. But overall, it reduces the effectiveness of Panther tank from version 2.4. You can't feel the awesome powerfulness of that L/70 long barreled cannon, yet I can't easily die from being flanked by a Sherman or Cromwell now.

I might enjoy the scaled tank combat if I don't find weird bugs/unintended consequences like these. I never expect it to be perfect either, but at least don't say as if the weird stuff is "totally intended."

Fine, we can't one shot a Sherman to its front with a KwK38 anymore, but can we have the M3 also nerfed down a bit?

Offline Natty

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #110 on: 01-10-2012, 17:10:24 »
not reading through all the last posts because they go in to too much detail about specific tanks and ammo types.

overall; we agreed before 2.4 that we simply didn't enjoy playing FH2. So we listed down all the things that annoyed us. Tanks being killed too easily was one of them. Lightning even stated how he hated driving for minutes in FH2 only to be killed and have to respawn and do it again.
This led to many inactive devs coming back to the team, we actually spent 6months only improving things we were unhappy with with fh2. The result was 2.4, one of our best patches.
In short you can say that tanking becomes too simple and arcadey when the tanks just blow up by one shot all the time. We dont enjoy the spawn-screen that much. So I helped Kev and the coders kick-start the anglemod thing, which works "so-so" and feels random at times, but it does help reducing 1S1Ks. We also wanted tanks to be engaged in longer fights, so you can play more cat-and-mouse and actually feel as in a combat.. Not just wait at a corner and who-ever shoots first, wins.

So sorry.. but the click-to-win game play, we tried it, and didnt like it. Tanks can resist some more damage so you dont have to re-spawn and camp at the tank-depo so much. The turret control thing was also a part of this, as goes a bunch of other tweaks like special ammo types distributed differently, and that you can repair your tank much faster now with the wrench.

If you have specific game play feedback on tanks, please post so, but keep it somewhat readable please. No walls of text about real-world tank-facts, we have enough of those. Map specific encounters and ingame experiences gets more attention.

Offline Surfbird

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #111 on: 01-10-2012, 17:10:08 »
Would anybody mind or consider it helpfull if I made a poll on how the forum members think about the tank system(s)? I´m asking because your decision has been made. I´ve however got the impression a (big?) part of the community was happier with the old tank system/faster tank battles. Making a poll without asking, feels like backstabbing the developers, who obviously have their plans with FH2. Then again it´s important how the community conceives the changes. I however would consider a poll interresting. Maybe I´m wrong and it turns out that most people are happy with the changes made/the direction the mod is going. It would  be vital feedback for the mod and the direction it´s heading to.

A poll would be interesting to know the communities opinion, but I'ma fraid of flamewar when there is a result, as some people are pretty mad about this topic already.
 
By the way, I doubt they turn back everything to 2.4. And I personally think they did not do too much wrong with the tank system right now.

My guess is that the devs wanted to get some luck and hits involved that don't completely fuck up the enemy tank and just damage the tank without completely disabling it. The 1s1k system has its disadvantages and I disagree with the 1s1k system when it works in 100 % of cases as people request. It leads to you being able to "calculate" the tank battle. Like taking the shot, knowing the enemy tank is going to be down after. That even was the argument of a lot of people.

I personally think it's not realistic to drive around knowing any shot in the side/rear is going to be lethal anyway. Takes away the excitement of a tank battle to me. On the other hand I understand it's frustrating when you sneak up on an enemy tank and hit it in the rear from short range and just damage it while the enemy turret turns and kills you. That should not happen.

But I seriously think a lot of people are overreacting because tanking has changed and is less calculable to them. Driving close up to an enemy tank for example would have been very risky irl, the enmy tank will not be able to turn around and shoot you as fast when you are further away. Things have become harder to predict and the tank drivers need to adjust their play style for sure. I think many of you don't want to do so and rather now what's gonna happen 10 seconds before you shoot. Actually this is the case even now, you are just not 100 % sure, but still 80 %.

Anyway, you got your valid points. Shells should be lethal from close range and the current system is kinda weird sometimes. That lucky survival happens too often currently. But I think it's wrong to say that the current system is wrong. I think making tank combat less calculable is not bad, just the % of lucky survival should be reduced and some bugs and weird damage/tank's armour values should be adjusted as well. I'm not sure how the coding for hits on tanks work, but I imagine it the devs probably have to adjust a lot of different factors to simulate a % Chance of survival, which should be between 5 and 10 %. Would be interesting to know how that works.

The devs should note the criticism though and put it together with their general idea behind the tanking system to optimize the current one - In my opinion optimization is needed, total rework or going back to 2.4 is not.

Edit: @ Natty: Ah, just read your stuff. Interesting, basically your intentions were those that I thought of. I like, as I said, the idea behind it, just be open for optimizing it and don't completely ignore the criticism. Imo there are tons of feedback given already, no need to post a lot more of it to show you that things might be slightly wrong.
« Last Edit: 01-10-2012, 17:10:05 by Surfbird »

Offline Natty

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #112 on: 01-10-2012, 17:10:33 »
we dont need a poll.. we base design decisions on

- player feedback
- ingame observations
- our own goals (how we want our mod to play)

Offline Zoologic

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #113 on: 01-10-2012, 18:10:28 »
Well tanks get 1S1K often in FH2, because there are too many tanks in a map.

We can't feel a tank like a real tank should in the previous games: absorb much of the bullet damages and keep pushing on. The so-called "knowledgeable" players exploited their knowledge on armour thickness and penetration power of each guns, and harvest scores from newbie or reckless tankers too often. A great example is kuebelschrecking and jeepzooks. The last patch (2.45) somewhat makes some tanks feels like a tank. I think you just simply corrected this problem with this new system.

But when speaking about tank vs tank wise, it produced a totally different opinion, and this is where the problem is. It is definitely not a 1s1k German fanboy fantasies, but sometimes it just defies realism plausibility. Like I said, when I sit inside a Cromwell, I never expect it to be a super tank or such. Same with Fireflies and other 17 pdr-armed tanks in-game, I just want to feel their threat when playing as Germans.

Back in FH1, most bullets bounced off my King Tiger, I feel superior. But suddenly, I was hit, followed by a loud sound effect, my health bar turned red. I knew a Firefly was around, so I thread lower. That's the kind of experience that I feel "realistic" somewhat.

Offline Natty

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #114 on: 01-10-2012, 19:10:14 »
I'm sorry.. was your experience so that you had an intact King Tiger and you were reduced to critical damage (red) from 1 shot ?  :-\

Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #115 on: 01-10-2012, 19:10:46 »
I'm sorry.. was your experience so that you had an intact King Tiger and you were reduced to critical damage (red) from 1 shot ?  :-\

He means in FH1 and that he liked it.

Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #116 on: 01-10-2012, 21:10:57 »
Could you please reduce or remove the random deviation atleast, so that I can predict where my shot is going to hit the target. I don't want to get killed just because I have some bad luck.

Ofcourse I can still 1S1K tanks but the influence of randomness or exagerated or wierd results is too high atm. And to make stationary guns and TD more effective you will have to give them more armor. The player who moves and makes efforts to engage his enemy is punished too often. Scaling is OK for me but not up to the extend we have now.

Btw, I support a poll.

Offline Butcher

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #117 on: 01-10-2012, 21:10:12 »
This all is sad news. Tanking is no option for me then. Bring on the planes. I think I will just take Mustangs or one of the three FW190s on Cobra (we all know that Luftwaffe controlled the sky in 1944) :P. Seriously FH2 lost a big part of its charme in 2.45 - and that was a huge amount of realism. It´s not only the tank system. You know what, bring on the Pershings for Normandy, who the hell cares?

I hoped this was just a "smaller" issue with version 2.45, but obviously you decided to go down the more arcade road. I´m not as motivated to play as I used to be pre 2.45 and since nothing is going to change, I think I reached my peak of playing FH2. :(
He got banned for our sins. He was not the member FH forums deserved, he was the member we needed.

Offline Natty

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #118 on: 01-10-2012, 23:10:44 »
well, it's quite arcadish to just click and kill anything you see. When tanks resist more shots, you need to commit to the fight more, you can't just sit and wait for the enemy to appear and waste him, you need to move as well. Use the maps and the terrain as tactic. + tanks dont need to be as afraid of engaging infantry in closer areas. We do still have the plague of portable guns 1s1k:ing tanks.... hope we can fix that soon.
The only map I really feel the inf vs tank game play is anywhere near what it should be is in ramelle, but there it's bordering on being too extreme. In most maps you just lol at any tank and toss some zook shell at him.

Naah, the pro's with more resilient tanks outweighs any "realism" data by far.

Weirdly, this thread is about how powerful tanks became less vulnurable, yet you want tanks to not resist shots? Kind of confusing feedback. I suggest outlining the overall tank-combat goods and bads so it's easier to digest all the feedback. What happens with walls of text is that devs don't read it, so you'll end up just barking at the moon. :-\

currently Im not responsible for any tanks and haven't been involved in their coding, so pls dont ask me why specific models behave as they do, I only gave you our high-end goals, which was more fun tanking. Im sure anyone agrees that it's better since 2.4 than before, but still needs work to become as good as it could be
« Last Edit: 01-10-2012, 23:10:39 by Natty »

Offline Musti

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #119 on: 01-10-2012, 23:10:13 »
Whoa whoa whooaaaa! Are you seriously telling me that this many-shots-to-kill bullshit is going to stay?
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