Author Topic: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45  (Read 22937 times)

Offline Butcher

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #90 on: 30-09-2012, 22:09:11 »
yea we dont want 1s1k with tanks so the changed worked, good.

This sounded pretty final, but I might aswell ask to be sure. Ain´t there any insider information about plans or internal discussions to change, or even slightly adjust the tank system?
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Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #91 on: 01-10-2012, 00:10:39 »
You will never be able to 1S1K the german tanks from any angle or any range,

yea we dont want 1s1k with tanks so the changed worked, good.

Did you really read the problems I explained and thought about them carefuly? Because it seems like you didn't do that.
If I have a tank and flank an enemy and my gun is capable of killing it with ease from the side, then I should be rewarded with a kill - you know, this is called fun and feels like an achievement. If you want players to stay with the mod then give them something they can rely on and something that is logical. The actual tank system is far away from this and frustrates the players more then giving them an enjoyable time. It might be cool for newbies, but for the long timers it is a pain in the ass and for players who are looking for a nice historical accurate experience even more.

It is a game and it is a fine line between realism and fun. But the scaling in the tanking system doesn't work. It makes stationary guns and tank destroyers deathtraps because they are still 1S1K in most of the cases.

Stop beeing so stubborn or you will kill the mod. Or atleast stop to make advertising with the so highly praised historical accuracy. Because this element got lost with the latest patch atleast in terms of the tank system. Tanking feels like CQC with machines and not like epic tank battles where you will have to fear the stronger tanks and try to think about a strategy to solve tactical problems. If you want to ignore this, then it is your good right and this mod is your baby, but I guess it feels better for the devs if the players enjoy playing their mod and don't make negative comments all the time.

I can only invite you to play the game with us more then once in a half year and you will get the biggest problems quite fast. I tried to explain the flaws in the most constructive way I could (creating videos and other stuff) but it feels like running against a wall tbh. Only thing I hear is that those features are intented and that you tested those "features" long enough - thatswhy we have imune bikers and invincible players who shot you right in the face after you tricked them. Seems not legit if I take a look at the current build. Maybe the devs should try to release smaller patches with tweaks and bug fixes and communicate problems with the playerbase in a constructive way after each release. If you can't get enough beta testers, then involve the players who are playing the mod every day. The question is, whether you want to get feedback or not. Don't refuse to feedback of veterans with "learn to aim" or similar things.
The server hotfix is a good start for this, the question is how this will be managed in the future. I am looking forward to this  :)

Offline Butcher

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #92 on: 01-10-2012, 01:10:52 »
+ 1 for 5hitm4k3rs comment. That´s pretty much my opinion also.

I think it´s worth to notice that the previous thread got some hundred posts within some weeks.

The second thread about the strange tank system in the feedback section (which is a section not used as much as "general discussion" or "suggestions") has seven pages of discussion within weeks also.

Tank combat concerns people.

If we don´t get a realistic tank system, because devs didn´t want 1s1ks on tanks I can´t wait for the Eastern Front to come! I will cry tears of joy if Theta0123 comes here complaining that his ISU 152 can´t 1s1k StuGs. Let´s face it - that makes as much sense as Shermans standing Panther shots. ;D
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Offline Zoologic

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #93 on: 01-10-2012, 05:10:35 »
Well, actually I have more problems for not being able to kill cyclist instead of failing to make hole on a Sherman with my awesum 75 mm L/70.

Offline Natty

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #94 on: 01-10-2012, 07:10:48 »
Our tank system is inconsistent because there are too many variables. That's it. Some tanks have 5-6 even more materials, add to that the anglemod, bunch of ammo variants, hundreds of tank variants etc and you sometime have a hard problem anticipate the outcome of your actions. This makes it feel random, yes.

Since some tanks have small areas with inpenetrable materials, and you fire at the tank from say 200meters, those areas will be on your screen reduced to a few pixels. When you hit those areas, you won't realise it, so the hit is perceived as a "bug" on your end.

Overall, tanks shouldnt 1s1k each other, but when you need 20 shots with the Panzer III N on the side of a tank with the 75mm AP round, obviously something is wrong.

Agreed also that stationary AT guns are overpowered compared to tanks, we can look in to nerfing these as well.

our end-goal with 2.4 was more fun tanking, and longer duration tankfights as well as less vulnurable tanks. The whole dev team agreed that tanks felt weak and silly in FH2 compared to FH1, so that is the reason we went through a re-design of the tank combat. A few players might still want to have those 1s1k to rack up their scores, but we dont develop towards them. (sorrry) Currently our tank combat allows tanks to live longer, so that goal is achieved. Now we need only to make it easier to anticipate the outcome of specific interactions, as well as fixing the most obvious bugs.

You arent going to get more 1s1k:s with the tanks because that game play was tested and deemed boring and uninteresting.
Cheers.

Offline LuckyOne

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #95 on: 01-10-2012, 07:10:44 »
It makes stationary guns and tank destroyers deathtraps because they are still 1S1K in most of the cases.

Agreed also that stationary AT guns are overpowered compared to tanks, we can look in to nerfing these as well.

Wait, wut?

Seriously, you do that and I'm out of this mod for good... If I wanted arcade gameplay and shiny graphics I would play Heroes and Generals (or Battlefield Heroes, since that's the level of arcade you guys seem to be aiming at).

You seriously need to decide to either go hardcore, or casual, you can't do both, RO 2 tried and look how that worked... Heck just look at FH 2.45 average and peak playernumbers, and you'll see sth is definitely wrong.
« Last Edit: 01-10-2012, 08:10:09 by LuckyOne »
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Offline DLFReporter

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #96 on: 01-10-2012, 09:10:21 »
Let's face it, the way you guys write, this mod is dead.  :'(
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Offline Zoologic

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #97 on: 01-10-2012, 10:10:10 »
Because some guy is forcing his idea on top of others.

We want realism, you guys gave us weird systems. To be honest, there are many approach of getting players: be different, be niche, provide something different to the market.... or copy/reverse engineer/plagiarise the best practice as in this case, what people perceive FH2 is going to be.

1s1k is okay, especially when it is done correctly, a.k.a when a player driving Sherman V cleverly flanking a Panther G and shot it at 90 degrees to its side armour. A player driving the Panther G might get reckless as his gun is able to punch most allied frontal armour from distance, but flanking allied tankers must be rewarded equally.

Making a tank combat longer is fine, just make it fairer, as reported in many of the tests performed here. It doesn't give you any sense of the "powerfulness" of Tiger I tank.

Talking about "that awesome FH gaming immersion":
TBH, I feel totally scared whenever I encountered a Tiger tank back in FH0.7. As an infantry, you'll piss your pants, much like that during SPR ambush scene, where the ground shakes and rattles when the Tiger rolls.
I feel like an arsehole when driving one back then, because it is so powerful, feels heavy, the engine sounds gives it that 'heavy' feeling. Careless allied tankers who don't utilize their resourcefulness or speed in the open can be picked off easily like harvesting strawberries from the garden.
One or two times, you'll be surprised of how a regular Sherman could kill you in an instant, shortly after you see their smoking muzzles. It turns out that the Sherman is actually a Firefly, because you just can't see the elongated barrel from afar.

How it felt in current version:
But in FH2 Tiger is just another big sized tank. Sure, the gun still packs some punch and the armour feels thicker. But encountering Sherman feels like another shell bouncing contest, which I will win most of the times. You no longer care whether they are Fireflies or not anymore, since 17 pdr now don't seem to be that deadly as well, at least in a few encounter, I survived the shots.

Now, some praise:
I welcome the introduction of new sound effects. It is cool stuff that should be added long long before.

Overall, I still think that FH2 has all the best tank combat experience of all combined arms shooter game out there. It has cool semi-realistic effects, historical accuracy to some degree, and impressive experience as a whole. What we are fearing here is the snowball effect, since Eastern front will be mostly tank-dominated battle, we surely don't want to experience silly engagements during it.

Back in FH1, I remembered all the frustration in Kharkov 1941 of trying to kill a single T-34 nesting in a bridge. That works as how the documentaries and stories told us: T-34 as clumsy as it goes (poor crew management, space, and equipments), it is also difficult to kill with early German arsenals. That difficult tank finally explodes from friendly fire incident. We now have ladungs, explosives, satchels, and all sort of stuffs to properly kill 'invincible' tanks, wasn't that balancing enough?

Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #98 on: 01-10-2012, 10:10:04 »
It has nothing to do with "Balancing". Who ever mentioned something about balancing? It's about the way tank combat work, not to balance out factions against each other (even though there seem to be idiots who think only German tanks had their damage reduced).

Offline LuckyOne

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #99 on: 01-10-2012, 11:10:15 »
Because some guy is forcing his idea on top of others.

We want realism, you guys gave us weird systems.

It might seem so, but this was probably a team decision. I don't believe a single dev (even if it's Natty) can have so much influence on others.

As for the realism. I don't want ultimate realism, since that would include me marching for a few hours and then being mowed down without ever seeing where the shot come from. But I want plausible, and Cromwells (or Shermans) bouncing 88s when clearly your muzzle is stuck right up their backside doesn't look like my idea of plausible...
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Offline Zoologic

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #100 on: 01-10-2012, 12:10:48 »
As for the realism. I don't want ultimate realism, since that would include me marching for a few hours and then being mowed down without ever seeing where the shot come from. But I want plausible, and Cromwells (or Shermans) bouncing 88s when clearly your muzzle is stuck right up their backside doesn't look like my idea of plausible...

Ultimate realism is for combat simulators, not a themed game like BF2.

I agree with your idea of realism. And your experience is probably coming from playing Project Reality. I hate that as well.

My idea of "realism" is something that can at least be referenced into, so you can feel some of these real life quotes true in-game "17 pdr cannon is powerful and effective," "FlaK 18 is deadly!" "Tiger tanks are dangerous!" "Shermans are death traps!" "the allies are resourceful!" But surely you don't have to go down into something like "Panther tanks are mechanically unreliable, it breaks down often" because you can't simulate that in-game.
And especially, not something utterly literal like "76 mm APCBC shell fired from M1 cannon can penetrate up to xxx.xxxxx mm of rolled homogenous 1944 German steel armour" and all the bullshite debates that came after like "so the Sherman 76 mm should be able to one shot kill this particular tank from this particular distance and angle."

Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #101 on: 01-10-2012, 12:10:24 »
But that's still the case. A Tiger is still better than a Sherman, it just can't 1s1k it in every situation. And now the veteran tankers are getting their panties in a bunch becuase of that. It's not enough that the Tiger is better, it needs to 1s1k as wel, otherwise all realism goes to hell :D

Offline Butcher

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #102 on: 01-10-2012, 12:10:19 »
(even though there seem to be idiots who think only German tanks had their damage reduced).
If you are referring to my previous thread with the german 75mms: I never denied that allied 76mms etc. are bouncing were they shouldn´t. The changes were just most notable when shooting at Shermans because M4A3s and M4A1s armed with the 76mm already could take hits pre 2.45. Then it got even worse.


@ Natty: Thank you for your answers. But to be honest I think this is the wrong way to go. While I appreciate that you want tank combat to last longer, atm. the engagements seem to be rather weird.

- Tanks getting off shots and then driving back into cover after being hit and then being repaired.

- Tankers bailing their tanks, not rewarding the guy who got off a shot with points (it´s simply not satisfactory for most players to just avoid the tank for the enemy and not get points).

- Stationary weapons (Paks, Pounders) and tankhunters (Marder, the allied 75mm armed Halftrack) being deathtraps and not even worthwhile to use.

- Immersion is basically gone for tank combat.

For me that´s no fun. And you can also see the negative feedback from other long time players. People were even discussing the "penetration = kill rule" pre 2.45... that´s more 1s1ks. But then you decided to make tank combat last longer - the opposite direction. Maybe a poll can give the answers what the community (at least on this forum) wants.

There is basically no realism behind it. There might be a system influenced by realistic armour and gun stats scaled over range; but the player ingame only sees shots bouncing/causing minor damage everywhere. That´s not realistic. But you don´t want it to be realsitic anyway.

I really appreciate the mod, the effort put into this and all the cool updates we get nearly every week. I can really see the love, work and historical knowledge put into this. But my honest feedback is that I´m disappointed by 2.45 tanking.
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Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #103 on: 01-10-2012, 12:10:43 »

- Tanks getting off shots and then driving back into cover after being hit and then being repaired.


That is exactly what was wanted, and that's also what we tested for back in beta. Instead of one way engagements you get actual options and tactics even after the fight has started.

Offline McCloskey

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #104 on: 01-10-2012, 12:10:07 »
With the direction this is heading, I can only hope infantry combat is somehow going to be more fluid, because apparently tanking won't be an option for me. Very, very sad panda. :(