Author Topic: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45  (Read 22914 times)

Offline Ahonen

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #60 on: 02-09-2012, 17:09:54 »
Again, your opinion is purely derived from your experience in playing FH2's Western European maps.

Which is totally why I mention a PzIII taking a hit from a 37mm gun, something that only happens in Africa.
Right.

Help to fix the fucking problem by talking about the subject: what cause the seemingly random penetration problems? How it happens (see the gameplay videos)? Etc.

It not a penetration problem, it's a damage at range problem. And the reason is well know, as the damage at specific range table that is used in the game is known already. No need for videos or anything, just see those crazy numbers.

As posted by Eat Uranium on the previous thread:



To provide some hard numbers for you to think about:

All this is without the anglemod considered, so bear in mind this is best case.  Using 3 Shermans, the m4a1mid_eu, m4a1_76mm and m4a3.  Only considering their hulls.  m4a1_76mm and m4a3 are identical.  The sideplates on the m4a1mid_eu are the same as the front.

7.5cm L48 - PzIV Ausf.H gun vs frontal armour
Tank                             Hits to kill at 10m   Hits to kill at 300m   1s1k max distance
m4a1mid_eu                            1                          3                     96m
m4a1_76mm and m4a3             2                          4                     N/A

7.5cm L48 - PzIV Ausf.H gun vs side armour
Tank                             Hits to kill at 10m   Hits to kill at 300m   1s1k max distance
m4a1mid_eu                             1                          2                    188m
m4a1_76mm and m4a3              1                          2                    188m


7.5cm L70 - Panther gun vs frontal armour
Tank                             Hits to kill at 10m   Hits to kill at 300m   1s1k max distance
m4a1mid_eu                              1                          2                    188m
m4a1_76mm and m4a3               1                          3                    96m

7.5cm L70 - Panther gun vs side armour
Tank                             Hits to kill at 10m   Hits to kill at 300m   1s1k max distance
m4a1mid_eu                              1                          2                    245m
m4a1_76mm and m4a3               1                          2                    245m




Did you perhaps miss that last time around? Just look at those numbers.
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Offline Kwiot

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #61 on: 02-09-2012, 17:09:10 »
So how the hell I didn't shoot a normal sherman to the side when the range was I think ~50m and angle was ~90 degrees?

Offline |7th|Nighthawk

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #62 on: 02-09-2012, 18:09:29 »
The M8 Greyound did too well after getting shot by an 88 from like 20m on Vossenack. It burned. Maybe it's the movement of the vehicle that gives it greater survivablilty.
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Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #63 on: 03-09-2012, 00:09:35 »
The numbers posted by Eat Uranium are not all right. You can kill all Shermans, except the both Jumbo 75/76 versions with one shot to the frontal armor with the Panzer IV. It works also on longer ranges like 25 metres though I don't know the limit where you need more than one shot. And it is kinda luck if you hit the right spot or not - it is a damn fine line.

I uploaded another video showing the problem with the Marder btw. It is over 200 metre so something I would call effective combat range in FH2. I have a second video where the angles are more extrem but at shorter distance - the result is nevertheless the same. The impact of the angle is too high and the damage of the Pak 40 to weak:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QiNUISt0PY

The movement of the tanks is indeed a huge problem, same as the movement of the gun. The damage should be increased at such a rate, that the movement doesn't matter anymore. I see alot of tanks starting to burn in those situations, so there isn't needed a big damage increasement. A system that would also fit well is a system like in Battlegroup Frontlines. It works like the bleeding system. If a tank starts to burn you have some second left to bail it/maybe try to repair it until it explodes automatic - but you have to do it fast. This way you don't punish the guy who disabled the tank by giving the guy in the burning tank the possibility to shoot back.

Offline Eat Uranium

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #64 on: 03-09-2012, 01:09:32 »
My calculations I did deal only with hulls, not turrets, and only with (Normandy) M4A1 and M4A1 76mm/M4A3.

I'm though actually genuinely interested to know why FH2 doesn't have critical damage loss on vehicles.

Offline ajappat

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #65 on: 03-09-2012, 09:09:54 »
I was actually playing VBF2 yeasterday and started thinking the same. It would fix many of these problems where people claim this and that should be 1s1k, while they are not atm. Just make them burn and give that tanker 5 second time to start repairing or shoot back and die with his tank.

Offline Butcher

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #66 on: 03-09-2012, 09:09:29 »
While being a nice idea in general, the problem would be a lot of people bailing. This problem doesn´t occur with 1s1k.

I think at a certain calibre a penetration should be a kill. With certain calibre I mean that 37mm, 2 Pounder and 50mms shouldn´t necessarily 1s1k Shermans/Panzers, even when penetrating because the diameter is smaller in relation to the tanks size. In those cases damage should be caused.

To clear things up: Shermans would still 1s1k Panthers to the side, because the diameter is big enough. 75/L48 would 1s1k Shermans at any spot and Churchills to the side etc.
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Offline hyperanthropos

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #67 on: 03-09-2012, 11:09:19 »
Wait , wait, wait having a timer after being hit critically is codable and not even very complicated? I think it would be a really great improvement.
Butcher is right that there are many people bailing, but they do it anyway I have to say. I think this would be a good feature to have in FH in any situation, I think it wouldnt solve all problems 2.45 (but some) brought us, but would make the game better in general.

Offline DLFReporter

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #68 on: 03-09-2012, 11:09:32 »
Wait , wait, wait having a timer after being hit critically is codable and not even very complicated? I think it would be a really great improvement.
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Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #69 on: 03-09-2012, 12:09:34 »
My calculations I did deal only with hulls, not turrets, and only with (Normandy) M4A1 and M4A1 76mm/M4A3.

I'm though actually genuinely interested to know why FH2 doesn't have critical damage loss on vehicles.

There are two spots you have to hit to kill a Sherman from the front with one shot from the PIV H. One spot is on the front hull and the other one at the turret front though the turret kill is unlikely.
I tried it with the Normandy tanks aswell (also the 76 mm version) and you can kill them with one shot to the front hull. I don't know how the different tanks are coded (M4A3 from the Bulge maps vs. M4A3 from Normandy maps for ex.). They all get killed in one shot if you hit this "weak" spot. Also the 105 mm version that you can find on Cobra.

@Ajappat: thats exactly the idea. You get a reward for shooting first and making a critical hit and the player who got tricked can decide what to do - fire back and die with his tank or try to bail and survive.
In both situations the more clever tanker won't get punished as much as it is atm. This would require to give TD their old strength, because they are all too weak atm.

@Butcher: if a tanker bails you are still in a superior postion compared to the actual system. If the tank will explode you won't have to worry about him anymore and can concentrate on other things like killing the bailed tanker or deal with other threats. The only punishment in this situation is the "lost" kill but I can sacrifice this. I see so many bailers with the current system anyway that it doesn't matter fore me.
« Last Edit: 03-09-2012, 12:09:50 by 5hitm4k3r »

Offline ajappat

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #70 on: 03-09-2012, 12:09:23 »
Wait , wait, wait having a timer after being hit critically is codable and not even very complicated? I think it would be a really great improvement.
Butcher is right that there are many people bailing, but they do it anyway I have to say. I think this would be a good feature to have in FH in any situation, I think it wouldnt solve all problems 2.45 (but some) brought us, but would make the game better in general.

That's how it is in original Battlefield 2. At about 3 bars of health left, vehicle starts losing it very rapidly. There's barely time to bailout and start to repair if that happens and obviously its death sentence if there is enemy shooting at you.

I think it's also present in current FH2 atleast for Chevy 30cwt LRDG and possibly some other light vehicles.

Offline hyperanthropos

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #71 on: 03-09-2012, 16:09:24 »
So adding this to tanks should be easy?

Offline Zoologic

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #72 on: 03-09-2012, 16:09:40 »
In FH2 tanks, if the healthbar is near depleted, it stays that way until you bail the tank. If we bail at that condition, the health will continue to drop until it explodes. Usually, the explosion will kill the player/driver who exited from the top of the turret. Many bots died this way, and the kill message will say

killer <victim tank> victim

So that is how a PIAT soldier managed to kill a German tanker with Panther tank, at least from my experience.

You can't repair near-dying tanks if it has no drivers (other occupants won't affect this). If you tried to repair, while you keep tightening the nuts with your wrench, you may see a slight increase in the health bar, but it will quickly drop again to the previous level, making all you effort useless. If a driver is present inside it, the health bar won't drop and you can continue to repair it to full health.


edit: making it more readable
« Last Edit: 03-09-2012, 18:09:13 by Zoologic »

Offline ajappat

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #73 on: 03-09-2012, 16:09:46 »
Is that so? I don't think I have never noticed it being like that...

About the kill message, it also happens when you simply shoot the the tank and bailer dies in explosion.

Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #74 on: 03-09-2012, 21:09:28 »
I for one see alot of burning tanks driving around the map. Many of them don't even care about it.