Author Topic: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45  (Read 22890 times)

Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #45 on: 30-08-2012, 23:08:10 »
But in 2.4 Firelfly was able to shoot Panther with 1 shot by shooting to their turret - not neccessary finding its short trap - was it changed in 2.45?

As I wrote. You are still able to 1S1K the Panther from the front But it is random also while aiming always on the same spot due to some deviation or something like this. So you have three different possibilities while facing one. You have the luck and get him with one shot, or you have bad luck and bounce off or simply don't deal enough damage. It is equal wich Panther. Caused by the deviation you can get different angles ofcourse. Problem is that those deviation occurs also on close range. So predicting where the shot will hit is a guessing game. I experienced all those different situations ingame. But I think you have to hit the shot trap atleast to deal damage at all. Anyhow, it should be a 1S1K, nothing else when you hit a weak spot and get through. If you hit the mantlet wich is 120 mm and slightly sloped you will have a good chance to bounce off ofcourse.

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #46 on: 31-08-2012, 00:08:16 »
1. The Sherman with the 76 mm gun needs two shots over long range at the StuG 40 (30 mm side armor), the Panzer IV and StuG IV (30 mm side armor) get killed in one shot by the same gun.
Tank hitpoints are based on a combination of the most likely to be hit rear and side armours.  The StuG 40, being based on the PzIII, has a much thicker rear than the StuG IV, so thus has more hitpoints.

Offline Ahonen

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #47 on: 31-08-2012, 02:08:29 »
where the gameplay of FH2.45, although more fun

Tanks performing nothing like you expect them to is fun? Landing a perfect ambush shot on a Sherman from a Marder or on a Panther's sides from an M10 at range and getting killed as reward is fun?

Tank guns have become so unreliable in 2.45 that you can't trust any tank to fulfill its role correctly.

Light armoured TDs are doomed, and tanks that rely on long range shooting suffered greatly.

Why would range even affect shell damage after penetration is beyond me. If it penetrates, it penetrates, and that's all that should count. Now larger tanks with better crew protection (Churchill or Tiger for example) should have a chance at surviving a penetrating shot, and low caliber guns should maybe not always 1s1k the average tank (a PzIII surviving a single 37mm shot to the side seems fine).

But a PzIV surviving a penetrating shot from a 75mm M3 gun or a Sherman surviving a penetrating shot from a 75/L48 is insane.
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Offline DLFReporter

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #48 on: 31-08-2012, 08:08:19 »
...
So finaly some footage (for more info read the description):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kTGKjkz-yY
I hope this helps to bring some clarification about the complains. I may make some other test aswell ;)

Please upload some more of these tests. So far all the shots you fired with the panther while stationary seem to be as I'd expect them to be.

Another point to add, make sure to place the tanks in a circle around your position, the way it is now, the distance between the tanks in the middle and you and the ones on the left/right is bigger than150m! And the Angle increases as well. But perhaps this was intended. :)
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Offline Steel_Lion_FIN

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #49 on: 31-08-2012, 08:08:26 »
Even better would be to put the PZIV H in the middle and then place shermans in a circle around it facing in the same direction like this:
               [ ]
        [ ]          [ ]
    [ ]      [P]      [ ]
        [ ]          [ ]
               [ ]

This way you get all the angles while distance is constant.
« Last Edit: 31-08-2012, 12:08:47 by Steel_Lion_FIN »
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Offline Butcher

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #50 on: 31-08-2012, 09:08:53 »
where the gameplay of FH2.45, although more fun

That´s really a highly subjective statement. Atm I´m just sitting in front of the PC facepalming myself after half of the tank engagements.

edit: I sound like an arse again. All in all FH2 is great, but previous versions showed that you could imo do better with the tank system.

@ Shitmaker: Nice video. Please make one with the Panzer IV H. You could show frontal hits also, because  those M4A3s stand 75mm/L48 hits easily. I´m not sure whether that issue is still present on the M4A1 with the 76mm gun. Would be nice to see that also.
« Last Edit: 31-08-2012, 09:08:48 by Butcher »
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Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #51 on: 31-08-2012, 11:08:06 »
What I wanted to show is the randomnes of shots and their dealt damage. Those Shermans have all the same side armor, except the both Jumbo's on the right side - atleast they should in theory. The M4A3E2 takes two shots from the side at this range. If you get closer they are 1S1K aswell.

If you repeat this experiment hundred times you will always get different results. It doesn't matter how far the target is away and and wich angle you have. You can easily 1S1K a Sherman at a range of over 150 with a angle of 60 degree or less, but on the other hand you can bounce off a point blank target as shown in the video or a target that is in a better position.

@EU: The problem of the StuG 40 compared to the StuG IV and Panzer IV is the side armor not the rear armor. Please correct me if I got your point wrong. I will uplaod some more videos.
« Last Edit: 31-08-2012, 11:08:14 by 5hitm4k3r »

Offline Ciupita

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #52 on: 31-08-2012, 13:08:40 »
What I wanted to show is the randomnes of shots and their dealt damage. Those Shermans have all the same side armor, except the both Jumbo's on the right side - atleast they should in theory. The M4A3E2 takes two shots from the side at this range. If you get closer they are 1S1K aswell.

If you repeat this experiment hundred times you will always get different results. It doesn't matter how far the target is away and and wich angle you have. You can easily 1S1K a Sherman at a range of over 150 with a angle of 60 degree or less, but on the other hand you can bounce off a point blank target as shown in the video or a target that is in a better position.

@EU: The problem of the StuG 40 compared to the StuG IV and Panzer IV is the side armor not the rear armor. Please correct me if I got your point wrong. I will uplaod some more videos.

76mm M4A3 tanks have wet ammo storage which gives them more HP IIRC.

Offline THeTA0123

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #53 on: 31-08-2012, 15:08:59 »
As some people have said before, including myself. If a tank gets penetrated, it is what is behind that that matters. An M4A3 was a gigantic improvement over older sherman tanks in terms of combat safety.

A churchill tank was the safest tank to be in when it got hit thanks to a great design of fuel lines placement and ammo storage.

And a panther tank/KT/PZIV stored its ammo in the side armour areas. AKA if a shell penetrated that area....

These are all important things when a tank gets penetrated.
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Offline Kwiot

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #54 on: 31-08-2012, 19:08:58 »
But in 2.4 Firelfly was able to shoot Panther with 1 shot by shooting to their turret - not neccessary finding its short trap - was it changed in 2.45?
Kwiot, the panthers frontal turret armour is 100mm thick. The 17PDR punches trough 130mm of armour at 500 meters without any problem. Yet you demand that a sherman tank with 55mm of armour, sloped back giving 90mm protection, gets one shotted by a KWK 40 wich penetrates 99mm of armour at 500 meters?

Sherman and sloped back? Ahahahaha....

Panzer IV should be able to 1 shot Sherman from the side and in the back.... I remember when I had to shoot with 2 shots Sherman 76mm in the back using Stug... -_-' And the angle was higher than 60 degrees...  ::)

Offline Steel_Lion_FIN

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #55 on: 31-08-2012, 19:08:51 »
Not sloped back armor, you derp. FRONT armor sloped BACKWARDS.
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Offline Butcher

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #56 on: 31-08-2012, 20:08:29 »
Which despite the slope should still be an easy one-shot-kill by any gun of the time...

A penetration should be portryed as kill ingame. Wet storage etc. might help some crew members to get out of the vehicle, but you aren´t seriously telling me that Sherman crews continued fighting when being hit by a high calibre gun with 75mm diameter. The Sherman is very likely to be waste and you can be rather sure that the crew is unable to operate the tank, because some are dead, or badly injured, not to mention confusion, concussion, disorientation and panic and fire (even with the wet storage). The tank can´t be used at that point - maybe it can be recovered later, but a Sherman when being hit wasn´t the resistant super tank it´s in 2.45. And all hits on 500 metres were penetrations on Shermans. Crew survivability has nothing to do with the tank being knocked out and Shermans were easy to knock out, unlike ingame.
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Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #57 on: 31-08-2012, 21:08:11 »
Another video now with the PIV H shooting at the front armor from 75 metre at a Sherman M1A1 - should be an easy 1s1k if you ask me. You are able to 1S1k the Sherman from the front, but it is much more difficult than making a 1s1k with the normal 75mm Sherman at the PIV. The Sherman 75 mm has the same fire power ingame what makes flanking and firing into the side of a Sherman over long range with a PIV damn difficult. The fact that you deal with much more allied tanks on maps like Cobra makes you easy food. The PIV H without the skirts seems to be less armored than the PIV H with skirts btw - that is just wrong. The Video with the M4A3 looks similar to the one with the M4A1. Will upload it later ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uci14ryEUk

Offline Zoologic

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #58 on: 01-09-2012, 02:09:22 »
where the gameplay of FH2.45, although more fun

Tanks performing nothing like you expect them to is fun? Landing a perfect ambush shot on a Sherman from a Marder or on a Panther's sides from an M10 at range and getting killed as reward is fun?

Tank guns have become so unreliable in 2.45 that you can't trust any tank to fulfill its role correctly.

Light armoured TDs are doomed, and tanks that rely on long range shooting suffered greatly.

Why would range even affect shell damage after penetration is beyond me. If it penetrates, it penetrates, and that's all that should count. Now larger tanks with better crew protection (Churchill or Tiger for example) should have a chance at surviving a penetrating shot, and low caliber guns should maybe not always 1s1k the average tank (a PzIII surviving a single 37mm shot to the side seems fine).

But a PzIV surviving a penetrating shot from a 75mm M3 gun or a Sherman surviving a penetrating shot from a 75/L48 is insane.

Again, your opinion is purely derived from your experience in playing FH2's Western European maps.

I asked this again: are you into helping or just trying to hog popularity by keep preaching about tired late-war tanks? Try North Africa sometimes! I think somehow everybody keeps their German bias to their own, but some guys just don't. They love the late war tank wars, because they feel great for taking the in-game Panther and Tiger tanks, also the Jagdpanzers and dress like Wittman or Carius.

Help to fix the fucking problem by talking about the subject: what cause the seemingly random penetration problems? How it happens (see the gameplay videos)? Etc.

It is clear from the beginning that the devs really know what cannons punch through which armour. And Shitmaker has been helping by doing real stuff instead of posting the obvious penetration tables. And I think Butcher has a good opinion here:

Which despite the slope should still be an easy one-shot-kill by any gun of the time...

A penetration should be portryed as kill ingame. Wet storage etc. might help some crew members to get out of the vehicle, but you aren´t seriously telling me that Sherman crews continued fighting when being hit by a high calibre gun with 75mm diameter. The Sherman is very likely to be waste and you can be rather sure that the crew is unable to operate the tank, because some are dead, or badly injured, not to mention confusion, concussion, disorientation and panic and fire (even with the wet storage). The tank can´t be used at that point - maybe it can be recovered later, but a Sherman when being hit wasn´t the resistant super tank it´s in 2.45. And all hits on 500 metres were penetrations on Shermans. Crew survivability has nothing to do with the tank being knocked out and Shermans were easy to knock out, unlike ingame.

Well, but then to "kill" a tank, you have to kill the crew in-game despite their survivability chance in the real situation. So to be fair, we have to agree with Mudra once more: Since BF2 is such a limited game engine when it comes to simulating realistic tank warfare, then we have to resort to the simplest system: penetration = kill, forgetting the tank interior layout design. If you want to play real WW2 tank simulator, you certainly can't do that in BF2.

Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #59 on: 01-09-2012, 17:09:55 »
What bothers me atm, is the comparison between the PIV and the Sherman side armor in relation to both guns. At long range you need two shots to the side with both of the tanks shooting at each other. One thing I will give the Sherman as an advantage are the 8 mm more side armor. But what simply gets overlooked is the fact that the KwK of the PIV H can penetrate 30 mm more armor at 500 metre. This is so much more fire power that you should have an advantage while flanking with the PIV H. Though you have to keep in mind that the 75mm M3 gun has much, much, much more deviation over long range than the KwK 40L48.

The Marder has three major problems atm. Too few firepower -  this Pak 40 is too weak and there is no discusion about it. Too few ammunition and this connected with an insane deviation and bullet drop. You really have to be an experienced tanker if you plan to get into a Marder I on Cobra.