Author Topic: The road to Prokhorovka New Update  (Read 41315 times)

Offline TASSER

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #45 on: 20-08-2012, 02:08:05 »
For those of you that dont know, Knoffhoff is the author of:

Operation Goodwood
Hurtgen Forest
Alam Halfa

 This is in good hands.

Easily my three favorite maps. Knoffhoff, I sincerely applaud your work.
BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!
BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! –ping       <3

Offline LtJimmy

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #46 on: 20-08-2012, 07:08:06 »
Isn't there some sort of debate in the historical community as to what, if anything happened at Prokhorovka. I remember hearing from somewhere that at best the debate is only over what forces took part, or the weather as mentioned by vM and at worst the battle has been exaggerated to such a degree for many years after WW2, the Germans and Soviets had an interest to inflate the size and scope of the battle - the Germans to save face from loosing and the Soviets to explain such high losses.

Offline Damaso

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #47 on: 20-08-2012, 07:08:13 »
Great job!

Well... im an ww2 geek, and maybe this is gona be a noob question for a guy like me ask over here:

Cant you add some katyushas over there?

(btw you can put the katyusha song in that map if you use katyusha) :D

Offline Kelmola

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #48 on: 20-08-2012, 10:08:59 »
Isn't there some sort of debate in the historical community as to what, if anything happened at Prokhorovka. I remember hearing from somewhere that at best the debate is only over what forces took part, or the weather as mentioned by vM and at worst the battle has been exaggerated to such a degree for many years after WW2, the Germans and Soviets had an interest to inflate the size and scope of the battle - the Germans to save face from loosing and the Soviets to explain such high losses.
Legend has it that scores of Panthers and Tigers were smashed by endless waves of T-34's, which is kinda interesting since no Panthers and four (sorry, memory failed about three) Tigers (out of initial 35 in the entire II SS PzKorps) were operational (15 total, but operational on paper is not the same as being able to fire and manoeuver). So there would be ~200 German tanks, mostly III and IV, with the odd StuG, II, and 38(t)) versus ~800 Soviet tanks (not all committed to action), ~450 T-34's, ~250 T-70's and the odd Churchill, SU-76, and SU-122 (no 85's or 152's). So the largest tank battle in history is actually either the Battle of Hannut or the Battle of Gembloux, in both of which almost 700 Panzers faced ~600 French tanks. (Would really be in the spirit of FH to have either or both in the mod!)

The weather was not dusty, but rainy and muddy, hampering tank movement. Rain was in intermittent showers, however, allowing massive air operations on both sides, fighter strength being too low on both sides to prevent these much (or in some cases, at all). Too bad most of the Soviet air raids were against 48th Panzer Korps, not against II SS Pz Korps. Visibility was often obscured by smoke, not dust; "dust" might or might not have originally been a translation error (so even reading a correct primary source one can arrive at the wrong conclusion).

The II SS PzKorps lost from 5 July to 23 July 36 tanks fully destroyed, 19 of which were between 5 July and 11 July, so at most 17 were completely lost at Prokhorovka.

By their own account, the Soviets lost 400 tanks to repairable damage (to all causes; losses to aircraft were particularly heavy). This in addition to those lost to irrepairable. Total losses would be around ~600, because on July 13 the 5th Guards Tank army had 150 to 200 tanks (out of initial ~800) still operational.

Tactically, it was a German victory, on a strategic scale, it was another Charge of the Light Brigade or Operations Market/Garden, because dear old Gefreiter then finally proved he only had one ball and instead of throwing the panzer reserves into the gap made by II SS - remember that Prokhorovka was a Soviet counterattack because the Germans had already made it through the defensive line there and would have been able to break through in their rear if not checked - made another of his strategically sound decisions to cancel the entire Zitadelle offensive and withdraw the entire II SS PzKorps which made no frakking sense, considering that it was the unit that was furthest into the gap and the Leibstandarte could and would never make it to Sicily in time. The Leibstandarte did leave their (still functional) heavy equipment behind (however, Das Reich and Totenkopf would put it into good use), however, which would further help to fuel the "SS were pwn3d" legend.

http://www.uni.edu/~licari/citadel.htm
http://stonebooks.com/archives/001002.shtml
http://www.historynet.com/battle-of-kursk-germanys-lost-victory-in-world-war-ii.htm

Offline silian

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #49 on: 20-08-2012, 10:08:33 »
The LSSAH had four operational Tigers on the 10th of July, which is what the table shows on the first link, not the entire II. SS Pz. Korps.

Offline Zoologic

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #50 on: 20-08-2012, 11:08:37 »
Oh



Yes, Knoffhoff's maps are always have this epic settings, most of them are scaled-down version of the actual battle sites while maintaining a good amount of authenticity. They offer a balance between good immersion and gameplay. They are easily my favourite.

Offline Kelmola

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #51 on: 20-08-2012, 13:08:53 »
Read again the sources... OK, my bad again. LSSAH had four, DR one and TK ten Tigers, 15 out of 300 (OK, 300, not 200) is still 1 in 20. The Wikipedia mentions that it is possible (read: "I think") that a further brigade (with ~45 Tigers) may have been involved ("citation needed", what a surprise). Did the Tigers contribute to the victory? Certainly. Were they decisive? Whether they were four or fourteen in number, hardly. LSSAH alone had more Marder III's than the entire Corps had Tigers. The Soviets lost twice the number of Churchills (!) than Germans had Tigers.

How I would setup the vehicles:
1 x Tiger
3-4 x PzIVF2/G
1-2 x PzIVF1
1 x PZIIJlate
2 x MarderIII
1 x StuG40F
1 x PzIIF

7 x T-34/76
4 x T-70
1 x KV-1/1942
2 x Churchill
1 x SU-76
1 x SU-122

Offline VonMudra

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #52 on: 20-08-2012, 16:08:27 »
Agreed with Kelmola's set up on vehicles.  I think that would be quite fine. :)

Offline Paythoss

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #53 on: 20-08-2012, 17:08:10 »
I think 3 or 5 x Pz III Ausf J or L ( M gonna be acurate but we don have any ? ) , with full pack of schurtzens , gonna be more precise ?
http://panzerschreck.strefa.pl/zdjecia/kursk/29.jpg
« Last Edit: 20-08-2012, 17:08:20 by Paythoss »

Offline VonMudra

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #54 on: 20-08-2012, 18:08:56 »
Eep, just noticed that Kelmola did miss out on the Panzer IIIs!  Yes, we would def need at least a couple L's or M's on the map.  Here btw, is the actual listing of tanks available for the Germans at Prok on July 10th:

Pz III: 11
Pz IV: 42
Pz VI Tiger: 4
Marder III: 20
StuG III: 20
Pz I: 2
Pz II: 4

So I'd say maybe this:

1x Tiger
2x Panzer III
3x Panzer IV
2x Marder III
2x Stug III
1x Panzer II

So that's 12 german tanks against

7x T-34/76
4x T-70
1x KV-1/1942
2x Churchill
1x SU-76
1x SU-122

A total of 16 Russian tanks.  Maybe should up it to 8 T-34, 2 Su76, and 5 T-70, thus making it 19 russian tanks.

Offline [F|H]Taz18

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #55 on: 20-08-2012, 18:08:05 »
M gonna be acurate but we don have any ?

Check the 2.45 German vehicles.

Offline McCloskey

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #56 on: 20-08-2012, 18:08:58 »
Only 28/31 tanks in total? I want to see moar! :D

Offline THeTA0123

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #57 on: 20-08-2012, 19:08:09 »
Eep, just noticed that Kelmola did miss out on the Panzer IIIs!  Yes, we would def need at least a couple L's or M's on the map.  Here btw, is the actual listing of tanks available for the Germans at Prok on July 10th:

Pz III: 11
Pz IV: 42
Pz VI Tiger: 4
Marder III: 20
StuG III: 20
Pz I: 2
Pz II: 4

So I'd say maybe this:

1x Tiger
2x Panzer III
3x Panzer IV
2x Marder III
2x Stug III
1x Panzer II

So that's 12 german tanks against

7x T-34/76
4x T-70
1x KV-1/1942
2x Churchill
1x SU-76
1x SU-122

A total of 16 Russian tanks.  Maybe should up it to 8 T-34, 2 Su76, and 5 T-70, thus making it 19 russian tanks.
16 russian tanks vs 12 german tanks is to few. then we get an operation totalize scenario. 19 vs 12 german tanks is a realistic setup. The tiger is gonna be very difficult to defeat tough...


But what about luftwaffe vs VVS?

I know that the Soviets had Yak-9's, La-5's, P39 airacobras, IL-2's and PE-2's and Tupolev SB's. Also a few A-20 havocs

In total, 266 fighters, 90 IL-2's and 160 Light and medium bombers

So i would say 1 YAK-9, 1 P-39 or LA-3, 2 IL-2's and 1 PE-2.

VS

1 ME 109, one FW 190 and 3 JU-87's. (One 37mm armed kannonenvogel and 2 bombers)


We really need the PE-2 in FH2...Ommitting this plane is unacceptable. This was a far better dive bomber then the IL-2. It was excellent all round armoured. It was used in so many roles and 11 400 built.
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Offline Steel_Lion_FIN

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #58 on: 20-08-2012, 20:08:45 »
Not so sure about that. IL-2  was designed with only ground support in mind. The PE-2 is pretty much the soviet equivalent of a JU-88 (a strategic dive bomber) and deHavilland Mosquito (almost anything from a heavy fighter to strategic low-level bomber)
I'd rather play Kimble with my ass!


Offline THeTA0123

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #59 on: 20-08-2012, 20:08:09 »
Not so sure about that. IL-2  was designed with only ground support in mind. The PE-2 is pretty much the soviet equivalent of a JU-88 (a strategic dive bomber) and deHavilland Mosquito (almost anything from a heavy fighter to strategic low-level bomber)
Nope.avi

The PE-2 was origenally designed as an escort figther(in a prison!)
Petlyakov's team got 45 days of evil commies to convert it into a divebomber. Later on a standard bomber version was also designed

But the PE-2 was regarded by the luftwaffe as the best soviet aircraft. It was very fast, durable and a real danger to fighter aircraft.
Quote
Maj. A. Mudin of JG 51, affirmed that the Pe-2 was the best Soviet aircraft: "It is a fast aircraft, with good armament, and it is dangerous to enemy fighters."

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