Author Topic: The road to Prokhorovka New Update  (Read 41351 times)

Offline Slayer

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #60 on: 20-08-2012, 20:08:26 »
Thx for the links Kelmola. Gonna change my story next time I teach Eastern Front :)

Offline Gurdy

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #61 on: 20-08-2012, 20:08:52 »
We really need the PE-2 in FH2...Ommitting this plane is unacceptable.


Hey, modeling and texturing tools are easy enough to find--if you want something in the mod, learn to model and make a well-rounded application!  ;)

In the meantime, let's be glad we have people such as Knoffhoff carrying us to the Ostfront!  ;D
« Last Edit: 20-08-2012, 20:08:37 by Gurdy »

Offline Kelmola

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #62 on: 20-08-2012, 20:08:16 »
The PE-2 was originally designed as an escort figther(in a prison!) Petlyakov's team got 45 days of evil commies to convert it into a divebomber.
I don't know what Stalin was having, but it was apparently same stuff Hitler had. (Also, even a stopped clock is right twice a day, which is obviously what happened here. Though would not be the first or the last plane that accidentally has unintended good qualities.)

Offline THeTA0123

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #63 on: 20-08-2012, 21:08:38 »
We really need the PE-2 in FH2...Ommitting this plane is unacceptable.


Hey, modeling and texturing tools are easy enough to find--if you want something in the mod, learn to model and make a well-rounded application!  ;)

I tried my man :( it is just to difficult
well my problem is actually patience....
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Offline LuckyOne

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #64 on: 20-08-2012, 21:08:10 »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeFkSV3_8iQ

Pe 2 is awesome... but that thing might be out of FH2 reach... Seeing as it had top,bottom, and side gunners... And devs said they generally aren't planning to add multi-crewed bombers anytime soon. :'(

Or I am wrong? On wiki it says it's a three man crew? Did the rear gunner operate all the guns or there was a version with only 1 top gun? I am confused by this little plane...

EDIT: It seems the rear gunner worked all the guns... I'm curious if this is possible to implement in bf 2...

Interesting that the top MG had an asymmetric firing arc...
« Last Edit: 20-08-2012, 21:08:45 by LuckyOne »
This sentence is intentionally left unfinished...

Offline THeTA0123

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #65 on: 20-08-2012, 21:08:17 »
the crew was always 3 man. the guns where manned by a single crew member


this thing aint out of reach! its like a beaufighter only slower and with defensive armament
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Offline silian

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #66 on: 20-08-2012, 22:08:12 »
Been looking at the aircraft on strength of the 2nd VA and Luftflotte 4 during the battle and think the following would be most appropriate.

Luftflotte 4

Observation - Fw 189A-2
Air-to-Air - Bf 109G-4 or 'G-6
Ground Attack - Fw 190A-5 and/or F-2
                      Hs 129B-2/R2 (30mm MK 103)
                      Ju 87D-5

2nd Air Army

Air-to-Air - La-5FN
                Yak-1B
Ground Attack - Il-2M (aka Il-2 m1943/Il-2 AM-38F, note, not the Il-2M3)
                      Il-2M NS-37 (Il-2 NS-37)
                      Pe-2FT 

http://www.yogysoft.de/pawel/_kursk/odbs/Lfl4_odb.htm
http://www.yogysoft.de/pawel/_kursk/odbs/2wa_upd.htm
« Last Edit: 20-08-2012, 22:08:37 by silian »

Online VonMudra

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #67 on: 20-08-2012, 23:08:21 »
Um, yes, the IL-2 was never designed as or used as a dive bomber, theta.  So of course the Pe-2 was better....

Also, the Pe-2 indeed had only 3 crew members but the bombadier would also have acted as a gunner when not busy bombing.

Offline DaWorg!

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #68 on: 21-08-2012, 02:08:13 »
Pe-3 had only one gunner as far as i know, not sure how much it was used on the frontlines though.
"The roar of engines, the recoil of cannons. That is where the true joy of battle lies."

Online VonMudra

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #69 on: 21-08-2012, 02:08:24 »
IIRC the Pe-3 had basically disappeared by the end of 1942, due to very poor performance, the airframe just couldn't handle all the armour add ons, causing it to be too sluggish in combat.

Offline LtJimmy

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #70 on: 21-08-2012, 07:08:47 »
Legend has it that scores of Panthers and Tigers were smashed by endless waves of T-34's, which is kinda interesting since no Panthers and four (sorry, memory failed about three) Tigers (out of initial 35 in the entire II SS PzKorps) were operational (15 total, but operational on paper is not the same as being able to fire and manoeuver). So there would be ~200 German tanks, mostly III and IV, with the odd StuG, II, and 38(t)) versus ~800 Soviet tanks (not all committed to action), ~450 T-34's, ~250 T-70's and the odd Churchill, SU-76, and SU-122 (no 85's or 152's). So the largest tank battle in history is actually either the Battle of Hannut or the Battle of Gembloux, in both of which almost 700 Panzers faced ~600 French tanks. (Would really be in the spirit of FH to have either or both in the mod!)

The weather was not dusty, but rainy and muddy, hampering tank movement. Rain was in intermittent showers, however, allowing massive air operations on both sides, fighter strength being too low on both sides to prevent these much (or in some cases, at all). Too bad most of the Soviet air raids were against 48th Panzer Korps, not against II SS Pz Korps. Visibility was often obscured by smoke, not dust; "dust" might or might not have originally been a translation error (so even reading a correct primary source one can arrive at the wrong conclusion).

The II SS PzKorps lost from 5 July to 23 July 36 tanks fully destroyed, 19 of which were between 5 July and 11 July, so at most 17 were completely lost at Prokhorovka.

By their own account, the Soviets lost 400 tanks to repairable damage (to all causes; losses to aircraft were particularly heavy). This in addition to those lost to irrepairable. Total losses would be around ~600, because on July 13 the 5th Guards Tank army had 150 to 200 tanks (out of initial ~800) still operational.

Tactically, it was a German victory, on a strategic scale, it was another Charge of the Light Brigade or Operations Market/Garden, because dear old Gefreiter then finally proved he only had one ball and instead of throwing the panzer reserves into the gap made by II SS - remember that Prokhorovka was a Soviet counterattack because the Germans had already made it through the defensive line there and would have been able to break through in their rear if not checked - made another of his strategically sound decisions to cancel the entire Zitadelle offensive and withdraw the entire II SS PzKorps which made no frakking sense, considering that it was the unit that was furthest into the gap and the Leibstandarte could and would never make it to Sicily in time. The Leibstandarte did leave their (still functional) heavy equipment behind (however, Das Reich and Totenkopf would put it into good use), however, which would further help to fuel the "SS were pwn3d" legend.

http://www.uni.edu/~licari/citadel.htm
http://stonebooks.com/archives/001002.shtml
http://www.historynet.com/battle-of-kursk-germanys-lost-victory-in-world-war-ii.htm
TIL :)

Offline THeTA0123

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #71 on: 21-08-2012, 17:08:45 »
German army could win battles tacticly

But rarely on a strategic scale.

numbers, numbers numbers and numbers. If a tank can still kill your tank, it doesnt matter then that it has twice the armour and triple the gun.

Sucks being the soldier on that army tough. But you're fucked up in any army in any war
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Offline Zoologic

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #72 on: 21-08-2012, 20:08:23 »
So, we are talking about "the largest" tank battle in a day in history? Or what?

Is Kursk salient still the host to the biggest tank battle? Or is it simply popular myth debunked? I'm still unsure with Kelmola's post.

Offline Steel_Lion_FIN

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #73 on: 21-08-2012, 20:08:49 »
So, we are talking about "the largest" tank battle in a day in history? Or what?

Is Kursk salient still the host to the biggest tank battle? Or is it simply popular myth debunked? I'm still unsure with Kelmola's post.

No, the french thing is the largest based on facts, the Kursk thing is overexaggarated (or however you spell it)
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Online VonMudra

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Re: The road to Prokhorovka
« Reply #74 on: 21-08-2012, 21:08:26 »
Actually, there is one larger than the French battles, the Battle of Brody in 1941, approx 600 or so German tanks against about 3000 russian (over 2000 of the russian tanks were T-26's)
« Last Edit: 21-08-2012, 21:08:11 by VonMudra »