Author Topic: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48  (Read 22283 times)

Offline F.E.Glöckner

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #105 on: 25-07-2012, 12:07:22 »
"Which is quite hard to believe as I've not encountered that kind of situation and the screenshots you provide as "proofs" just show you don't really assess properly what happens. For example Gotkai's screenshot shows an angle between 80 and 70° to the hellcat's side, not 90° as he says, and nothing tells us he didn't actually hit the turret with a misplaced and very bad angle hit."

Seriusly, the Hellcat IRL had a max. Armour of f*cking 25,4mm at the Turretfront and 12,7mm
everywhere else. The 75mm/L48 should have killed it on any distance, any angle and no matter where it have hit!

Offline Gotkai

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #106 on: 25-07-2012, 12:07:21 »
5hitm4k3r thanks for the compliment.

What do you think im talking about?

Let us assume it was 70° and not 90° (although you can see that its almost 90°). At this range a KwK from a Panzer IV should cut through the max. 25mm armor of Hellcat like a hot knife through butter. No matter which angle.
Penetration rate of a KwK L48 is 106mm at a range of 100m and 30°. Here we have much better conditions because range is closer and angle is better.

Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #107 on: 25-07-2012, 13:07:52 »
As long as the Shermans don't one shot the Panther in return, I don't see a problem here, after all, the realtive strength of the tanks is unchanged.

Offline THeTA0123

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #108 on: 25-07-2012, 13:07:45 »
Got 2 shotted from long range by Panther tank..
TBH not really big of an issue :/ axis tanks still rape allied tanks 1 to 1 and axis tanks still are in far to big numbers on most maps

And its only the late M4A3 models. The 76mm Shermans are still M4A1's
« Last Edit: 25-07-2012, 14:07:14 by THeTA0123 »
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Offline Strat_84

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #109 on: 25-07-2012, 14:07:04 »
Seriusly, the Hellcat IRL had a max. Armour of f*cking 25,4mm at the Turretfront and 12,7mm
everywhere else. The 75mm/L48 should have killed it on any distance, any angle and no matter where it have hit!

No, it's wrong.

Take that thin 12.7mm armor plate with a shell incoming at 5°, the sharp end of the shell will face an effective thickness around 230mm. And due to the shape of a ammunitions you would have the side of the shell hitting the armor plate before or at the same time as the sharp end for any hit below something like 10°, resulting in a likely bounce.
The only shells that could ignore such details would be shot by heavy artillery, in that case the massive weight would be enough to just crush the plate, no matter how it falls on it.


Offline Butcher

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #110 on: 25-07-2012, 14:07:05 »
Got 2 shotted from long range by Panther tank..
TBH not really big of an issue :/ axis tanks still rape allied tanks 1 to 1 and axis tanks still are in far to big numbers on most maps

And its only the late M4A3 models. The 76mm Shermans are still M4A1's

Don´t talk it down. 8 pages in only 3 days means something. This is (in my opinion) the most gamebreaking issue the patch included. The 2.4 tank system was fun and close to realistic. Now it´s a gamble and you can´t count on anything. German tanks can´t attack over range. But that´s EXACTLY what their advantage was in reality. Sure the projectiles lost power over the range but it was still enough to finish off Shermans (especially with the L70). Not having it included is awkward. Another thing is that the 75/L48 gave StuGs and Panzer IVs an edge in anti tank performance. At 500 metres every Sherman (except the Jumbo) was taken out reliably - that was the dilemma the Sherman was all about, the german standard anti tank guns could counter them effectively in 1944/45. Germans had dedicated anti tank guns on all their tanks at the time. At the moment they don´t.

The same thing of course also goes with 17 pounders and american 76mm bouncing/ not dealing enough damage to StuGs/Panzer IVs, but it seems that the Sherman bounces everything a lot more and also takes less damage from penetrating hits.

This has nothing to do with WW2 tanking. This is pure arcade. A crucial point of FH2 that really made it fun for me - the aspect of realistic (at least more than in other games) tank combat - is missing. The 2.4 tanking system was far superior to the current and a lot of people agree here. Look at the comments.

If you want to balance tank combat reduce the numbers of german tanks and leave the system as it was in 2.4. You can´t deny that there is an incredible increase of ridicolous tank engagements since 2.45.

As long as the Shermans don't one shot the Panther in return, I don't see a problem here, after all, the realtive strength of the tanks is unchanged.
If we go down the total realstic way they should at the proper angle from the side. However this would also have apply to churchill tanks and 75mm/L48s then. Both are heavy tanks so I get why they stand hits for balances sake. But if we do the penetration = kill rule (as I think there should be) both would have to be 1s1k to the side.

We need some solutions.
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Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #111 on: 25-07-2012, 14:07:19 »
My point is that the German tanks are still superior, there just us fewer 1s1k across the board.

Offline Kubador

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #112 on: 25-07-2012, 16:07:47 »
First of all, cool down. Most likely there won't be a hotfix regarding this issue as it's not gamebreaking. We may see some tweaking on this issue but I wouldn't bet for anything else sooner than 2.5.

I see we have passionate players when it comes to tanking but don't expect for changes to come on your demand. Your arguments were noted (thankyouverymuch :)) but that's it for now. Make a video or a thorough bug report, i.e. two guys testing on an empty server (with exact distances, screenshots etc.), can help evidence and pinpoint the bug / imperfect design.

Playing on public server is good only for 'impressions' and not for strict numbers / in game test. The less additional factors the better.

I know this from experience that many times thought something was broken yet after proper testing it turned out it was in my head (and I have some gaming hours under my belt).

Offline Ahonen

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #113 on: 25-07-2012, 17:07:57 »
Playing on public server is good only for 'impressions' and not for strict numbers / in game test. The less additional factors the better.

Eat Uranium provided us with the strict numbers in question.

To provide some hard numbers for you to think about:
All this is without the anglemod considered, so bear in mind this is best case.  Using 3 Shermans, the m4a1mid_eu, m4a1_76mm and m4a3.  Only considering their hulls.  m4a1_76mm and m4a3 are identical.  The sideplates on the m4a1mid_eu are the same as the front.

7.5cm L48 - PzIV Ausf.H gun vs frontal armour
TankHits to kill at 10mHits to kill at 300m1s1k max distance
m4a1mid_eu1396m
m4a1_76mm and m4a324N/A

7.5cm L70 - Panther gun vs frontal armour
TankHits to kill at 10mHits to kill at 300m1s1k max distance
m4a1mid_eu12188m
m4a1_76mm and m4a31396m

Those show that even without taking the anglemod into account, a 75/L48 needs 4 (FOUR) shots to the front of a late Sherman to take it out at long range, and 3 for an early one. Even the 75/L70 needs 3 shots. All of those shots should pretty much outright kill or at least cause burn and death 2sec later (to simulate later versions having better crew protection) on Shermans.
It was fine before, but somebody in the last patch thought that making tank fighting an arcade thing was a good idea in FH2, where most people I believe were content with how a single penetrating hit was usually enough to kill an average medium tank like the Sherman.
« Last Edit: 25-07-2012, 17:07:21 by Ahonen »
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Offline kingtiger1891

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #114 on: 25-07-2012, 18:07:49 »

I have breaking news for you. I just checked the files.
..

Lol, criticising the devs may get you sarcasm comments like that, I knew it about 2 years ago while I was saying things about the allied biased 2.26/2.3 version, which is true if you look it back now.

But seriously I enjoy 2.26/2.3 much more than what it is now. At least I can get proper one shot kills back then which I think is one of the basic idea of FH.

Don't tell me "breaking news" nonsense to avoid the fact that in less than half the visual distance of totalize(245m), Panther already can't one shot Sherman to the side because of some change. Someone may think it's very hard to do a 245m shot but I just happened to do it quite frequently on some maps. And I believe there're similar ridiculous situations for some allied gun vs axis armor, not just for what you claimed "my beloved" axis armor.

And I don't want this thread becomes an axis/allied bias dicussion, does all these changes make 2.45 allied favored? I can't get there. I'm not gonna accuse 2.45 for being allied biased like I did to 2.26/2.3. Ts4ever made a fair point that while Panther have difficulty one shotting Sherman, Sherman doesn't have much to do with Panther as well. I believe in a range where Panther vs Sherman isn't 1s1k, even firefly can't one shot Panther by hitting the mantlet. So despite all the ridiculous situation I don't feel I die more in new version, the range limit forces me to tank in close quarter and that often means raping infantry more, thus actually I also kills more. But that kind of play style just bores me.

I want Panther 1s1k Shermans in long range just like I don't mind getting one shot killed by firefly in long range if it hit the mantlet, because that's how realistic is and how FH was.The comments to support the new system in this thread are all like: less 1s1k, more survival, more balance.

I believe that's what vanilla battlefield is too, then what's the point of playing FH2? I personally find BF3:Armored Kill more attracting in terms of this.

If vanilla and vehicle balance is the goal the new tank system is serving it well, I admit that. So I demand no change if FH is turning itself to this type. Otherwise, roll it back to 2.4, but no little tweaks, thanks. Since the middle way always dissatisfies all people. I don't want to see things like this in 2.5 changelog: The 1s1k distance for 75/L70 vs Sherman side hull is changed to 300m instead of 245m. Either keep it arcade, or keep it realistic.

BTW, I don't think there's need for video in the long range shooting case, Eat's chart had made it quite clear.
« Last Edit: 25-07-2012, 20:07:39 by kingtiger1891 »

Offline [QPS]_Sex_Bomb

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #115 on: 25-07-2012, 19:07:26 »
The comments to support the new system in this thread are all like: less 1s1k, more survival, more balance.

In a game like red orchestra (1 and 2),  it's uncommon to 1s1k tank.  I never heard anyone complain about this.  imho, balance between tanks has not changed with the new patch.  It's only harder to get 1s1k.  If I face panther with a sherman, maybe i will survive the 2 first shot, but in the end, i will die with none of my shots pierced thru panther frontal armor. 

Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #116 on: 25-07-2012, 20:07:16 »
The comments to support the new system in this thread are all like: less 1s1k, more survival, more balance.

In a game like red orchestra (1 and 2),  it's uncommon to 1s1k tank.  I never heard anyone complain about this.  imho, balance between tanks has not changed with the new patch.  It's only harder to get 1s1k.  If I face panther with a sherman, maybe i will survive the 2 first shot, but in the end, i will die with none of my shots pierced thru panther frontal armor.

That is exactly my point. If the Shermans would 1s1k the Panther in return I would understand the whining, but since they are also affected...

Offline jan_kurator

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #117 on: 25-07-2012, 20:07:27 »
In a game like red orchestra (1 and 2),  it's uncommon to 1s1k tank.  I never heard anyone complain about this.  imho, balance between tanks has not changed with the new patch.  It's only harder to get 1s1k.  If I face panther with a sherman, maybe i will survive the 2 first shot, but in the end, i will die with none of my shots pierced thru panther frontal armor.
and you have time to hide then, not insta die

Offline kingtiger1891

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #118 on: 25-07-2012, 20:07:29 »
Just made some modification to my previous comments..

Talking about RO, I actually seen complaints like "how can T-34 bounce off so many 88s", quite similar to the situation now.

Offline Ahonen

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #119 on: 25-07-2012, 23:07:20 »
That is exactly my point. If the Shermans would 1s1k the Panther in return I would understand the whining, but since they are also affected...

It made tank combat into arcade shit. Making a single mistake should cost you your life in a tank. Also, light armoured TDs like Marder series rely on their first shot to survive. Right now, the Sherman will survive the ambush and destroy the Marder.

And it feels incredibly unnatural. When driving a tank in FH2 I expect it to perform in certain ways. I certainly never expected to see a Sherman survive three shots off my 75/L48.

« Last Edit: 25-07-2012, 23:07:18 by Ahonen »
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