Author Topic: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48  (Read 22258 times)

Offline Tankbuster

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #90 on: 24-07-2012, 19:07:34 »
It will be funny when the EF arrives, the T-34 will be like the T-90.


On the other hand, I can destroy Shermans with my Panther with 1 shot in Op Cobra on SP.


Offline AtParmentier

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #91 on: 24-07-2012, 19:07:41 »
As a WaW tanker, I've some experience with tanking.
The current damage dealt by tank guns isn't good. When driving a early firefly I met up with a Panther, driving trough the hedgrows we ended up facing each other at 90° at a distance of 100m.
He got the first shot, it was a clean one, it didn't kill me, instead I could shoot him twice and killed him.
I know his shots were clean because after the engagement I got out of my tank and inspected my tank.
I saw the holes on perfect places not on any tracks attached to it or special round places. The first shot should have killed me.

Offline Strat_84

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #92 on: 24-07-2012, 19:07:33 »
;D - it is good to get a general comparison of different gun and armor values, i never stated it is the ultimate truth. But tell me, do you actually have access to ww2 manufactured guns, ammunition and steel and a shooting range under perfect conditions? I guess not. Until that, things like these should always stay open for discussion. i do not doubt the devs knowledge nor dedication on matters like this, but putting differnet views and opinions on the table should always be possible and welcome.

For that purpose you'd better use known penetration tables and do a bit of simple calculation yourself to compare it to armor thicknesses for a said angle. It will be more reliable than a nice looking picture with data coming from unclear and most likely false calculations.

Simulations in physics are a part of my job, and I can tell you the worst mistake in that area is just to trust a model you know nothing about. Especially when you find evidences that some input data is false, and some results very strange.  ;)


Offline Eat Uranium

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #93 on: 24-07-2012, 21:07:51 »
To provide some hard numbers for you to think about:

All this is without the anglemod considered, so bear in mind this is best case.  Using 3 Shermans, the m4a1mid_eu, m4a1_76mm and m4a3.  Only considering their hulls.  m4a1_76mm and m4a3 are identical.  The sideplates on the m4a1mid_eu are the same as the front.

7.5cm L48 - PzIV Ausf.H gun vs frontal armour
TankHits to kill at 10mHits to kill at 300m1s1k max distance
m4a1mid_eu1396m
m4a1_76mm and m4a324N/A

7.5cm L48 - PzIV Ausf.H gun vs side armour
TankHits to kill at 10mHits to kill at 300m1s1k max distance
m4a1mid_eu12188m
m4a1_76mm and m4a312188m


7.5cm L70 - Panther gun vs frontal armour
TankHits to kill at 10mHits to kill at 300m1s1k max distance
m4a1mid_eu12188m
m4a1_76mm and m4a31396m

7.5cm L70 - Panther gun vs side armour
TankHits to kill at 10mHits to kill at 300m1s1k max distance
m4a1mid_eu12245m
m4a1_76mm and m4a312245m
« Last Edit: 24-07-2012, 21:07:25 by Eat Uranium »

Offline VonMudra

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #94 on: 24-07-2012, 23:07:59 »
So, basically, you're agreeing that it is taking too many hits to kill, as ALL of those hits should one shot at 300m.

Offline kingtiger1891

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #95 on: 25-07-2012, 00:07:05 »
Thanks for posting the chart, now the problem seems to be clear.

I understand there's difference between realistic and game, but IRL 75/L70 has 89mm penetration in 2000m, and in this chart the 1s1k distance to ~40mm Sherman side is some 245m, not even half the visual distance of Totalize. Nothing more to be said  ::)

I strongly suggest to roll back the long range damage system to 2.4

Offline Eat Uranium

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #96 on: 25-07-2012, 01:07:28 »
There is nothing wrong persay about the system I think.  Really most of the faults with it could be fixed with some variability in the distance damage dropoff.  Currently I think this is uniformly begins at 10 metres and ends at 300 metres.

Now, the max veiwrange on any FH2 map is no more than 600m (might even be less than that).  Shooting at targets at that range and expecting a first or second time hit is optimistic at best I think.  Since ingame distances are rather more scaled than irl, we pick a distance at which we can call equivalent to 0.5 real kilometers (300~400 metres is probably a good choice for this).  Then you set the distancetomindamage according to how fast the real life penetration of the shell drops off (a faster shell will lose a smaller % of it's velocity over 500m than a slower one).

7.5cmL70 is pretty high velocity, so the min damage distance would probably be much further away (and thus the 1s1k distance will be further too).  I've no problem if the panther can't 1s1k a sherman on the edge of the fog - it is unlikely that they will be able to take any evasive action against you apart from hiding.

Offline kingtiger1891

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #97 on: 25-07-2012, 02:07:47 »
Panther shooting Sherman hull is already a very extreme case, I mean should be a distinctive 1s1k over range. If even this isn't possible, applying this standard to other case will be interesting, Sherman 75mm guns vs pz4 from side, not a 1s1k over some 200 metres? Doesn't sound scan at all.

And I just can't find what's wrong with the old long range damage system, it did have a long range damage decrease which I think is more proper.

Offline Ahonen

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #98 on: 25-07-2012, 05:07:10 »
To provide some hard numbers for you to think about:

All this is without the anglemod considered, so bear in mind this is best case.  Using 3 Shermans, the m4a1mid_eu, m4a1_76mm and m4a3.  Only considering their hulls.  m4a1_76mm and m4a3 are identical.  The sideplates on the m4a1mid_eu are the same as the front.

7.5cm L48 - PzIV Ausf.H gun vs frontal armour
TankHits to kill at 10mHits to kill at 300m1s1k max distance
m4a1mid_eu1396m
m4a1_76mm and m4a324N/A

7.5cm L48 - PzIV Ausf.H gun vs side armour
TankHits to kill at 10mHits to kill at 300m1s1k max distance
m4a1mid_eu12188m
m4a1_76mm and m4a312188m


7.5cm L70 - Panther gun vs frontal armour
TankHits to kill at 10mHits to kill at 300m1s1k max distance
m4a1mid_eu12188m
m4a1_76mm and m4a31396m

7.5cm L70 - Panther gun vs side armour
TankHits to kill at 10mHits to kill at 300m1s1k max distance
m4a1mid_eu12245m
m4a1_76mm and m4a312245m

Holy hell.
75/L70 needing more than one shot to kill a Sherman is quite insane.
So is 75/L48 needing 3 to 4 shots to kill a one at long range.

Seriously, what the fuck. Did no one notice anything wrong during beta-testing?
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Offline AdamPA1006

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #99 on: 25-07-2012, 06:07:32 »
To provide some hard numbers for you to think about:

All this is without the anglemod considered, so bear in mind this is best case.  Using 3 Shermans, the m4a1mid_eu, m4a1_76mm and m4a3.  Only considering their hulls.  m4a1_76mm and m4a3 are identical.  The sideplates on the m4a1mid_eu are the same as the front.

7.5cm L48 - PzIV Ausf.H gun vs frontal armour
TankHits to kill at 10mHits to kill at 300m1s1k max distance
m4a1mid_eu1396m
m4a1_76mm and m4a324N/A

7.5cm L48 - PzIV Ausf.H gun vs side armour
TankHits to kill at 10mHits to kill at 300m1s1k max distance
m4a1mid_eu12188m
m4a1_76mm and m4a312188m


7.5cm L70 - Panther gun vs frontal armour
TankHits to kill at 10mHits to kill at 300m1s1k max distance
m4a1mid_eu12188m
m4a1_76mm and m4a31396m

7.5cm L70 - Panther gun vs side armour
TankHits to kill at 10mHits to kill at 300m1s1k max distance
m4a1mid_eu12245m
m4a1_76mm and m4a312245m

Holy hell.
75/L70 needing more than one shot to kill a Sherman is quite insane.
So is 75/L48 needing 3 to 4 shots to kill a one at long range.

Seriously, what the fuck. Did no one notice anything wrong during beta-testing?

+1. These new changes have made the game pretty ridiculous

Offline VonMudra

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #100 on: 25-07-2012, 07:07:57 »
I didn't notice cuz I never use tanks really.  But seeing this, and testing it myself...I will never not beta test the tank combat again.  This MUST be changed.

Offline Neighbor Kid

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #101 on: 25-07-2012, 07:07:34 »
I honestly do just fine with how it is now.. 
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Offline [F|H]Taz18

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #102 on: 25-07-2012, 10:07:57 »
Seriously, what the fuck. Did no one notice anything wrong during beta-testing?

No, this was the way the Dev's have designed the system and the testers were made fully aware of this.


I seriously, don't see what all the bitching is about. I have yet to notice much if any difference, in most cases tank combat in-game is within 250m. On maps like Totalize and Cobra you don't tend to have more than 250-300m of unobstructed view on the ground due to buildings, vegetation, or terrain despite the higher view distance.

If anything I've only noticed how intense it can be now at times (eg. shooting a Pz4 2-3 times with them looking straight at me while in a Cruiser and wondering if I'll survive the encounter).

Offline Strat_84

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #103 on: 25-07-2012, 10:07:28 »
I strongly suggest to roll back the long range damage system to 2.4
And I just can't find what's wrong with the old long range damage system, it did have a long range damage decrease which I think is more proper.
I have breaking news for you. I just checked the files.

Guns base damage didn't change between 2.4 and 2.45
Damage drop with distance didn't change between 2.4 and 2.45
The only thing that changed a bit are the ridiculously high coefficients that increase the damage when there's a lot of difference between the penetration power of a gun and the thickness of the armor it hits. And when I say a lot it's not 30-40mm, but 100mm + . And this affects ALL guns, not only your beloved German tanks.

I hope you start to feel ridiculous now ?

I love how EU gives you some informations to help you thinking about the global problem (i.e. balancing a complete set of guns/tanks with ENTIRELY different characteristics, and BTW showing you that THERE ARE 1s1k situations) and some of you just pick the info to serve their obsessing idea. That's what you call constructive criticism I guess ?

But let's follow your mind:
1s1k for every German tank (they rule the battlefield after all !), also let's remove the angle mod as it's useless with 1s1k everytime and it would only frustate you of an easy kill if you miss your aiming.
1s1k for everyone, it will make the game so much more interesting ! and ... Oh wait, someone is telling me this will make Panthers 1s1k as well, and the very same people are going to come back and whine their mighty panzer has been defeated by a sherman shooting its side. And endless complains will carry on ...  ::)

Now, let's provide the extreme problems some of you reported are real (like the 4 tiger shots in a sherman side without result).
Which is quite hard to believe as I've not encountered that kind of situation and the screenshots you provide as "proofs" just show you don't really assess properly what happens. For example Gotkai's screenshot shows an angle between 80 and 70° to the hellcat's side, not 90° as he says, and nothing tells us he didn't actually hit the turret with a misplaced and very bad angle hit.

So let's provide the problems are real, there are two possibilities:
- Either this is a random mishit due to angle mod and bad aiming (like Lightning said but it seems you read only what you want to read)
- Or it comes from the server. I bet my pants that most of the people coming with a serious problem were playing on 762, which seems to have serious lag problems since some time. And noone needs to tell you what happens when a server lags and hit registration fails ...


Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #104 on: 25-07-2012, 11:07:44 »
I can asure you, that Gotkai will hit you in your Hellcat at such a range, as I saw him playing in RL and his aiming is extremely good. This is almost 90 degree. What I really don't get is, that you still think, that we are telling BS. I took the time to test one of my bug reports on a local server and to point out a problem. But according to some of you this feedback seems not welcome or you alege us of beeing biased or something else. We brought alot of examples for both allied and axis side.

I can live with the situation, that the system is scaled down. But some of these situations are so damn ridiciolous - like the PIV never being able to 1S1K a Sherman 76 from the side of it's turrest also from extremely close ranges. Then where is the point of taking the risk to flank a tank and make a move?

It's the same like shooting with a normal Sherman to the side of a Panther. If I manage to flank him, why don't I deserve the kill? And I had alot of these situations in 2.4, where I only shot him burning. He turns a bit and kills me.