Author Topic: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48  (Read 22340 times)

Offline Lightning

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #75 on: 24-07-2012, 14:07:18 »
why get those reports of bugs only something like - "Stop Whining"?
There is not a single bug report in this thread. All I see is random instances from gameplay. Get on an empty server and shoot a StuG in the front with a firefly. Record exactly where it hits when it doesn' t kill and what your distance to the StuG was. In the heat of the moment of an actual tank battle it's almost impossible to see where exactly you hit your target - and impossible to see where your enemy hit you.

You'll see that all hits that do not kill the target hit it at a weird angle. Sometimes that gives you a bad result, true, but that's the price we pay for getting rid of killing Tigers with Shermans by hitting them on the top of the turret at 2 degrees. It's a bargain.

Offline THeTA0123

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #76 on: 24-07-2012, 14:07:53 »
I personally find this way better, not the constant killwhore fests you see with panzers.

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Offline LuckyOne

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #77 on: 24-07-2012, 14:07:47 »
I personally find this way better, not the constant killwhore fests you see with panzers.

Yes but the thing is it's now a killwhore fest of panzers... Shermans bounce off (or get reduced damage) from all kinds of shots due to rounded edges (even the long 88 at times!) and the flat panzers get 1shot killed...

Don't get me wrong I hate axis bias, but now it's almost too easy!

My suggestion, leave the angle mod in place and up the damage dealt back to 2.4 standards...

OR better if it's possible to do, reduce speed/turret turning when the tank is low on health (burning). Like in FH 1 so there is a better chance for the Panzer to get the second hit in.
« Last Edit: 24-07-2012, 15:07:34 by LuckyOne »
This sentence is intentionally left unfinished...

Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #78 on: 24-07-2012, 15:07:02 »
why get those reports of bugs only something like - "Stop Whining"?
There is not a single bug report in this thread.

Aha. So a Tiger that needs FOUR shots in the side of a Sherman to kill it is a feature now and not a bug? Do you want to tell me in all honesty, that we are telling BS and that guys like Gotkai or Horstpetersens, who played over 1000 hours FH2 don't know, how the game mechanics work?

As said like hundred times and mentioned by other long time players, there are bugs now and stange situations, that didn't occure in 2.4 but in 2.45. One thing I can understand is the flaw of this engine, where damage on a fast moving target gets reduced. I had this yesterday while shooting at the side of a moving Vickers at Keren - the Cruiser on the other hand wasn't a problem. But a PIV, which shots a standing Sherman through the turret and only takes away half the HP from a perfect angle at 50 metre, is indeed a misscalculation of damage - in the end it is a reported bug. Now it's up to you, what you do with this information. I can't do more than this, because I have no modding skills. But I hope that you see, that this isn't whining, maybe people just want to give feedabck and help to improve the mod within their possibilities, so that the experience gets more enjoyable in the next version.

Edit: I made a test on a local server, just to test it. PIVH doesn't kill the Sherman to the side of it's turret at such a close range. I have a second screen, if you still don't trust me. Now tell me, it is not a bug.
« Last Edit: 24-07-2012, 15:07:46 by 5hitm4k3r »

Offline kingtiger1891

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #79 on: 24-07-2012, 15:07:47 »
@Lightning: Really? When I get hit by an enemy tank I would know where he is, what's the direction, what tank he is.

@Theta: Actually sometimes I kills more on tank in new version(at least not less generally), the change affects the whole game and is not one side biased, so you can stop things like "panzer killwhore", if a player can be a panzer killwhore in 2.4, I don't think he has much problem being it in 2.45.



But kills are not the point, with this unable to one-shot-kill in many situations where it needs to, it makes tank vs tank not attractive any more. Imagine this: I'm in a Panther, spot a firefly, he doesn't know. I fire, hit, but didn't get a kill though it should, then he spot me and shoot back. Result A, I get killed: The tank system just made it unfair. Result B, firefly's shell bounces off too, we return to the original situation and I need to fire again, then what's the point except consuming more ammo?

For devs who want exact, accurate explanation of the bug:

The first part of this bug caused by angle mod, so it happens in all range and will appear randomly, you need to "clean" the hitbox of armors even more.

Second part of this bug casued by the tweak of damage decrease over long range, this can be exact. Damage decrease over range is way too much now, Sherman can 100% resist a Panther AP even from side in some range. Combine the angle mod bug it makes long range kill even harder.

I remeber FH2 had a decent long range damage system in the past, I did some long range test back in 2.2 and it worked fine, it's not necessary to tweak it and intensify the bug cause by angle mod.

Despite what you think about the arcade, more one shot kill or not, whether 75/L48 should one shot a sherman, here's something at LEAST:

Tiger/Panther should be able to one shot Sherman's hull in all range.

Currently the system doesn't do that, for sure.
« Last Edit: 24-07-2012, 15:07:21 by kingtiger1891 »

Offline Thorondor123

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #80 on: 24-07-2012, 16:07:55 »
Just like Firefly should one shot Tiger/Panther.
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Offline kingtiger1891

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #81 on: 24-07-2012, 16:07:08 »
Just like Firefly should one shot Tiger/Panther.
Indeed, currently Firefly/M36 has problems one shooting Panthers in mantlet or Tigers from the side, Stug frontally as well. As I said this is not one sided.
« Last Edit: 24-07-2012, 16:07:26 by kingtiger1891 »

Offline Horstpetersens

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #82 on: 24-07-2012, 16:07:32 »
Panther shotting Shermans is something like this pic:

It doesn't need to be "random factor", damage lowered over range whatsoever, it just need to be unconditionally one shot killed, otherwise it's bugged or being overly arcade.

thats how it was and has to be.
there isn't much about to discuss.
if u going to change it to arcade you bury that mod, because if i want to play arcade i can play bf3.
why is there allways a need to improve things that are good and make it even worst?

Offline Horstpetersens

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #83 on: 24-07-2012, 16:07:32 »
Just like Firefly should one shot Tiger/Panther.
nope im sorry thats not that easy as it is on the panther sherman constellation
http://www.wwiiequipment.com/pencalc/#

Offline Musti

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #84 on: 24-07-2012, 17:07:34 »
Penetration should always mean a kill. Sadly, we can't have that for the sake of gameplay.
17pdr should definitely be able to 1s1k both tiger and panther from any side, apart from Panther's hull font.
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Offline LuckyOne

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #85 on: 24-07-2012, 17:07:52 »
nope im sorry thats not that easy as it is on the panther sherman constellation
http://www.wwiiequipment.com/pencalc/#

Don't know what chart you are looking at but at 0 degrees it's pretty much a clean penetration from any side for distances less than 500 m (assuming APCBC/APDS shells and Tiger target). Panther hull front is a different story according to those charts, as it should be because of the angled armor there.
« Last Edit: 24-07-2012, 17:07:00 by LuckyOne »
This sentence is intentionally left unfinished...

Offline VonMudra

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #86 on: 24-07-2012, 18:07:43 »
Yes, Thorondor.  If a shot penetrates, it should kill.  If it doesn't penetrate, imo, it should do little to no damage.  That would simplify everything, and make everyone happy.

Offline Strat_84

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #87 on: 24-07-2012, 18:07:17 »
Whoever first linked the wwiiepuipment.com calculator on this forum should be tied up to a pole naked and beaten with brambles. On public square of course.

Now we have a bunch of (ignorant) people believing you just need to pull a few buttons on a website to get the ultimate balistic truth with a cherry on top. They don't have a clue about how it works, don't care about its limitations, and not only is there no detailed explanation of the method used, but if you have a look at the advanced options you'll see even the data it uses is quite unreliable.

One nice example: according to this the penetration of a 75mm L70 APCR shell would be ... 273.6. Millimeters ? Seriously ? Even right out of the gun's barrel such figure is just a joke. And it's the same for almost every guns, their penetration is always drastically overestimated.

So please stop bothering us with this wonky tool.  >:(


Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #88 on: 24-07-2012, 19:07:29 »
Did you actually take a look at the screenshots posted. There were things posted, that you can proofe also using other sources. The gun of the PIV can penetrate armor of 100 mm at 100 metre, 64 mm on 2000 metre. The Sherman has a side armor on the turret of 50 mm at 5 degree. Do you seriously want to tell me, that a Sherman only would be burning, nor could it turn it's turret and shot back at the PIV? It is not only this tool. It is common sense in those situations. And we sadly don't have the possibility to have such awesome tanking systems like in RO or ArmA, where certain tank parts could be disabled. So we only can give the player a reliable system with historical accurate values as far as the engine allows it. Do you want to abandon this for most of the players important historical correctnes? I don't think that this is the rigth way to go.

Offline mopskind

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #89 on: 24-07-2012, 19:07:12 »
Whoever first linked the wwiiepuipment.com calculator on this forum should be tied up to a pole naked and beaten with brambles. On public square of course.

 ;D - it is good to get a general comparison of different gun and armor values, i never stated it is the ultimate truth. But tell me, do you actually have access to ww2 manufactured guns, ammunition and steel and a shooting range under perfect conditions? I guess not. Until that, things like these should always stay open for discussion. i do not doubt the devs knowledge nor dedication on matters like this, but putting differnet views and opinions on the table should always be possible and welcome.