Author Topic: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48  (Read 22280 times)

Offline Steel_Lion_FIN

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #120 on: 25-07-2012, 23:07:52 »
Well it works both ways: Tonight on hslan, on bastogne, in a hellcat, a frontal shot on PzIV hull, should be 1s1k, but no! PzIV however 1s1k me. Then later, from about 110 degrees, I shot at a KT hull. Upper section 3 times, lower section once. The killshot was the fifth one, shot at the tracks.
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Offline Ahonen

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #121 on: 26-07-2012, 00:07:09 »
Well it works both ways: Tonight on hslan, on bastogne, in a hellcat, a frontal shot on PzIV hull, should be 1s1k, but no! PzIV however 1s1k me.

What do you mean, both ways? I described a thin-armoured TD, and so did you.
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Offline Steel_Lion_FIN

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #122 on: 26-07-2012, 01:07:43 »
German guns don't 1s1k when they should, same thing with allied guns as well.
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Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #123 on: 26-07-2012, 03:07:55 »
In a game like red orchestra (1 and 2),  it's uncommon to 1s1k tank.  I never heard anyone complain about this.  imho, balance between tanks has not changed with the new patch.  It's only harder to get 1s1k.  If I face panther with a sherman, maybe i will survive the 2 first shot, but in the end, i will die with none of my shots pierced thru panther frontal armor.
and you have time to hide then, not insta die

It is total rubbish to compare RO tank combat with FH2 tank combat. In RO the tank fights happen over several hundred metres if not one kilometer or more. The tanks have a much more detailed model in terms of damage (tracks, turret, gun, hull etc.) so that you can defeat a tank for example by disabling his turret or gun. In FH2 we don't have the possibility to simulate such things, so a disabled tank should be a dead (killed tank). A PAK 40 needed three shots today from the airfield on Cobra today on my Sherman 76 at the trainstation and I didn't even get killed. On such a range this is a joke. I could understand 2 shots, if you really want to scale it, but not that many shots. If you really have a clue of RO tank combat, then you would see that shots from 100 metre to the side of a tank from 90 degree are one shot kills. Things like hitting the ammunition or other vulnerable parts plays a role over a much longer range and not over the ranges we have in FH2. Sloped armor plays a much more important role due to longer ranges too. I see just no sense in comparing those systems with each other. And when a PIV is a 1S1K straigth over the map from 90 degree, then why isn't the Sherman a 1S1K from the side from the same range at the same angle? That would be scaling.

Offline VonMudra

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #124 on: 26-07-2012, 06:07:24 »
That is exactly my point. If the Shermans would 1s1k the Panther in return I would understand the whining, but since they are also affected...

It made tank combat into arcade shit. Making a single mistake should cost you your life in a tank. Also, light armoured TDs like Marder series rely on their first shot to survive. Right now, the Sherman will survive the ambush and destroy the Marder.

And it feels incredibly unnatural. When driving a tank in FH2 I expect it to perform in certain ways. I certainly never expected to see a Sherman survive three shots off my 75/L48.

Agreed with this.  The Marder series relies on having high power cannon that can attack at distance/ambush and not have to worry about their armour at all.  Right now, they would be basically death traps.

Also, @ TS, I think we are ALL asking for the shermans to one shot Panthers to the side.

Offline LuckyOne

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #125 on: 26-07-2012, 12:07:41 »
Seems like most people dislike the new tanking damage system... I'd like to see this rolled back, or at least toned down, so I can at least reliably one shot kill enemy tanks from 100 m.

I'll provide another example. We all know the Stuart wasn't the most liked tank of the NA campaign because was heavily armored but it was loved because of its speed and smooth transmission. Now yesterday, on Gazala a guy in a Panzer III needed 5 shots to kill me... From a distance of about 200 m. The shots penetrated but the damage dealt was... meh.
« Last Edit: 26-07-2012, 12:07:43 by LuckyOne »
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Offline THeTA0123

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #126 on: 26-07-2012, 12:07:53 »
No worries guys, i'm sure they will fix the panther/marder/pak 40 vs sherman issue

But i kinda like the change to the PZIV/Stug and 75mm l48 series...

Its kinda retarded to see people here saying that allied vehicles should be 1s1k when they are penetrated, but german tanks should not :/
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Offline LuckyOne

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #127 on: 26-07-2012, 12:07:17 »
No worries guys, i'm sure they will fix the panther/marder/pak 40 vs sherman issue

But i kinda like the change to the PZIV/Stug and 75mm l48 series...

Its kinda retarded to see people here saying that allied vehicles should be 1s1k when they are penetrated, but german tanks should not :/

I never said that... I said "enemy". This goes for any tank, Axis or Allied.
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Offline Butcher

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #128 on: 26-07-2012, 13:07:46 »
Eat Uranium can propably confirm this as his Tiger B shot just bounced off my M4A3 yesterday from a perfect flat angle. Only the 2nd shot killed me. Througout the game however my M4A3 however could run amok, penetrating the Kingtiger without troubles and I even managed to 1 shot 3 Panthers from the distance to the side in the same round.

Another Issue about the Marder is it only having 13 AP shells, good luck fighting with it for more than 2 mins for you will get out of ammo really soon.

No worries guys, i'm sure they will fix the panther/marder/pak 40 vs sherman issue

But i kinda like the change to the PZIV/Stug and 75mm l48 series...

Its kinda retarded to see people here saying that allied vehicles should be 1s1k when they are penetrated, but german tanks should not :/
Nobody said this. I would like to see a system where a penetration is a kill. Panther should get 1 shot at the proper angle from the side, but then I want to go the full realistic way and see Panzer IVs and StuGs penetrating/ knocking out Churchills from the side also. If this rule doesn´t apply to all tanks because they are heavier (e.g. Panther gets killed with a sideshot, Churchill does not), then it should not apply to the other heavy tank (Panther) at all. All or nothing.

But the biggest problem really is about the Shermans:
It´s the standard tank and on every tank map.

- You can hardly ambush it at distance, the driver will hide or run away after the bounce/ little damage dealt. Right now it´s better to just run your Panther into the Sherman.
- Bailing the tank has become a lot more common. The driver has the chance to jsut leave the damaged vehicle.
- Ambushes with Panzerschrecks and Marders are futile. The Ambusher will get propably killed although getting off the first shot.
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Offline Musti

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #129 on: 26-07-2012, 13:07:53 »
I agree, "new" tanking system isn't all that great. I don;t know if its angle mod, or lower damage over range,
but KT surviving a hit to the side with 90mm gun is not-fun-at-all. Even though i managed to get a nice 90-ish degree shot to the side, it didn't kill the KT (Said KT then proceeded to turn around and kill me in one shot). Panthers surviving multiple shots with 90mm gun also aren't fun.
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Offline THeTA0123

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #130 on: 26-07-2012, 13:07:44 »
But keep in mind=FH2 always strived for a combination of arcade and realism with historical accuracy being priority

I agree, "new" tanking system isn't all that great. I don;t know if its angle mod, or lower damage over range,
but KT surviving a hit to the side with 90mm gun is not-fun-at-all. Even though i managed to get a nice 90-ish degree shot to the side, it didn't kill the KT (Said KT then proceeded to turn around and kill me in one shot). Panthers surviving multiple shots with 90mm gun also aren't fun.
True that.
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Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #131 on: 26-07-2012, 14:07:16 »
No worries guys, i'm sure they will fix the panther/marder/pak 40 vs sherman issue

But i kinda like the change to the PZIV/Stug and 75mm l48 series...

Its kinda retarded to see people here saying that allied vehicles should be 1s1k when they are penetrated, but german tanks should not :/

I don't know, where you got this information from but over the last pages nobody was complaining about the armor of the german tanks. Only the comparison doesn't work. A normal Sherman would never withstand a shot from PIV from 90 degree at hundred metre, and a PIV would never withstand a shot from the same range at the same angle. But we don't have it lik this. If you want to scale it into oblivion, then also make the PIV a 2S1K from the side or give it the same fire power like the Sherman. I had a match yesterday where I could rape the enemy tanks into peaces in my Sherman 76 without a single threat on Cobra. Only inf with Geballte managed to kill me and a Panther that managed to get on a range like 20 metres. I dealt with like 30 shots from all kind of tanks and AT weapons, but it was like driving a heavy tank. I don't know whether american tank crews were laughing their asses off, like I did it yesterday about german tanks like StuG's, Panthers and PIV. Certainly not  ::)

Offline THeTA0123

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #132 on: 26-07-2012, 14:07:58 »
No worries guys, i'm sure they will fix the panther/marder/pak 40 vs sherman issue

But i kinda like the change to the PZIV/Stug and 75mm l48 series...

Its kinda retarded to see people here saying that allied vehicles should be 1s1k when they are penetrated, but german tanks should not :/

I don't know, where you got this information from but over the last pages nobody was complaining about the armor of the german tanks. Only the comparison doesn't work. A normal Sherman would never withstand a shot from PIV from 90 degree at hundred metre, and a PIV would never withstand a shot from the same range at the same angle. But we don't have it lik this. If you want to scale it into oblivion, then also make the PIV a 2S1K from the side or give it the same fire power like the Sherman. I had a match yesterday where I could rape the enemy tanks into peaces in my Sherman 76 without a single threat on Cobra. Only inf with Geballte managed to kill me and a Panther that managed to get on a range like 20 metres. I dealt with like 30 shots from all kind of tanks and AT weapons, but it was like driving a heavy tank. I don't know whether american tank crews were laughing their asses off, like I did it yesterday about german tanks like StuG's, Panthers and PIV. Certainly not  ::)
you obviously dint read what the devs said
The M4A1 early shermans could be penetrated at a range off 1300 meters by the PZIV's L48.

But the later Sherman M4A3 with welded hull had many faults corrected and a panzer IV needed to be in range of 500 meters to manage a frontal penetration. Keep in mind the frontal turret armour also increased to 90mm

Now FH2 penetration range is set to 500 meters. The KWK 40 L48 penetration at that range is 96mm. The hull of a sherman tank is 55mm thick and with the angle taken into account, it roughly will protect around 90mm.  But if we then take in account that this has to be a perfect 90 degree angle shot, questionable quality of late war german ammo(allies had questionable early war armour on the sherman tank, hence the M4A1 was so easily penetrated), this in FH2 rules takes into account that the Sherman tank M4A3 SHOULD not be a 1S1K situation. The same way a Panther tank from the sides does not die from a single piat. The same way a PZIV/STUG does not die from a single APCBC round from a 57mm gun now(you need 3 at short range)

It penetrates 100mm. Penetration is not a kill however. The 75mmL48 will need a couple shots frontally against most Shermans. The same way a Firefly will need a couple shots against the Tiger's frontal.
It'll do 4x as much damage vs. 40mm then it will against 100mm. In addition, damage is lowered over range and if hitting an angle between 60 - 90d.
The panzer IV has a weak mantlet with only 50mm. A good Sherman tanker will hit it and kill it.

The sherman V was buffed in 2.45. The frontal armour is 51mm@56d from vertical IRL. By line of sight, this calculates to 90mm. In 2.45 it is 70mm, in 2.4 it was 60mm. This is standard compensation we do for angled armour, which was overlooked for the Sherman previously. Also, the sherman variants now differ more between engine types and cast/welded armour.
Basically, axis bias has removed. Glad its being noticed.

There :)
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Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #133 on: 26-07-2012, 17:07:49 »
Common'
You mean I can stick my gun into the side of hits turret from a perfect angle and I should still not be able to kill it? That's a joke, isn't it? If this happens on a range of 300 metre I am fine with it, but now ...  ::)

My biggest complains are about the too strong Sherman side armor from extremely good angles on appropriate ranges in relation to the too weak performing gun of the PIV as it is represented ingame.

My other example was to show the too strong performing Sherman M4A3 armor in relation to the to weak performing PAK 40 (4 shots over 300 metre are too much)

Offline [QPS]_Sex_Bomb

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #134 on: 26-07-2012, 17:07:56 »
Thread name could be renamed "Inefficiency of all tanks guns".   The same code is applied on all tanks so saying the 1s1k issue is only related to a particular gun (or tank), that is rubbish.   Relative strength between armors and guns remain unchanged.  I agree that some tanks (like marder) has lost ambush/long range advantage, but probably not to the point of changing maps balance.  I bet we will have to adapt our way to play until the next release.
« Last Edit: 26-07-2012, 18:07:51 by [QPS]_Sex_Bomb »