Author Topic: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48  (Read 22741 times)

Offline Butcher

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1.839
  • ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    • View Profile
Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« on: 22-07-2012, 19:07:49 »
For the ones who don´t know about that gun: I´m talking about the cannon mounted on the Panzer IV, StuGs, Hetzer, Marder series.

I´ve found that the thing is just frustrating to use lately. There are a lot of crazy bounces on Sherman tanks.

A few examples from goodwood and cobra this week:

- 3 shots required from the Marder 1 to finish an angled Sherman in the side
- Panzer IV shot penetrating a Shermans (V) unangled front hull, leaving it intact - Panzer IV gets 1 shot killed frontally
- Panzer IV shot bouncing frontally from the same Sherman (V) - Panzer IV getting 1 shot killed again
- StuG III bouncing 2 shells from a firefly at far distance
- Got hit in a Sherman on Cobra some days ago by a Marder and the 3rd hit finished me.

I don´t even want to start about the M4A3 Shermans that stand hits even better. But lately I´ve found that firing those German guns is rather frustrating and there are a lot of strange moments in which you ask yourself what the hell is going on. There are a lot of engagements that just seem to go wrong with german 75mms.

I didn´t experience bounces this extreme any time before.

Thanks for your answers.
He got banned for our sins. He was not the member FH forums deserved, he was the member we needed.

Offline mopskind

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 385
    • View Profile
Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #1 on: 22-07-2012, 19:07:27 »
Notices that aswell! I saw that all the 75mm/L48 got simple AP ammuniton now, is this on purpose? Cause now you mostly need at least two shots to kill a sherman

Offline Butcher

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1.839
  • ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    • View Profile
Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #2 on: 22-07-2012, 19:07:11 »
Yeah, Pzgr 40 has been taken away on purpose. But that´s realistic for there was no tungsten available at the time. The few rounds available were rather sent to the Eastern front. So there were no Pzgr40 to speak of on the western front in 1944. So that´s correct.
He got banned for our sins. He was not the member FH forums deserved, he was the member we needed.

Offline Kev4000

  • Developer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1.039
  • FH2 "special" coder
    • View Profile
Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #3 on: 22-07-2012, 20:07:34 »
It penetrates 100mm. Penetration is not a kill however. The 75mmL48 will need a couple shots frontally against most Shermans. The same way a Firefly will need a couple shots against the Tiger's frontal.
It'll do 4x as much damage vs. 40mm then it will against 100mm. In addition, damage is lowered over range and if hitting an angle between 60 - 90d.
The panzer IV has a weak mantlet with only 50mm. A good Sherman tanker will hit it and kill it.

The sherman V was buffed in 2.45. The frontal armour is 51mm@56d from vertical IRL. By line of sight, this calculates to 90mm. In 2.45 it is 70mm, in 2.4 it was 60mm. This is standard compensation we do for angled armour, which was overlooked for the Sherman previously. Also, the sherman variants now differ more between engine types and cast/welded armour.
Basically, axis bias has removed. Glad its being noticed.

Offline kingtiger1891

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 458
    • View Profile
Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #4 on: 22-07-2012, 20:07:03 »
Actually even 75/L70 experienced quite some difficulty in one shotting Shermans now, not to mention the L48. But that's not one sided, the 17pdr and 90mm guns often require 2 shots on mantlet to kill a Panther which makes them no difference from the American 76mm M1A1. Other things like 17pdr resisting Stug, 88 resisting Cromwell, still happens a lot in 2.45.

The angle mod is supposed to deal with 1 degree side armor/top armor hits issue, now it seems it cause more problems than it contributes.

The sherman V was buffed in 2.45. The frontal armour is 51mm@56d from vertical IRL. By line of sight, this calculates to 90mm. In 2.45 it is 70mm, in 2.4 it was 60mm.
It's more like 51mm@47d, besides, fix that for the sloped armor on KT/Hetzer plz, thanks.
« Last Edit: 22-07-2012, 20:07:47 by kingtiger1891 »

Offline mopskind

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 385
    • View Profile
Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #5 on: 22-07-2012, 20:07:51 »
Yeah, Pzgr 40 has been taken away on purpose. But that´s realistic for there was no tungsten available at the time. The few rounds available were rather sent to the Eastern front. So there were no Pzgr40 to speak of on the western front in 1944. So that´s correct.

I didn't even mean special ammo- just that the normal rounds aren't even APBC rounds anymore. Where common AP rounds even still produced and issued at that time?

Offline Thorondor123

  • God Emperor
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6.573
  • Lugbûrz-ûr!
    • View Profile
Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #6 on: 22-07-2012, 20:07:22 »
Is should be APCBC-HE... Maybe it has the wrong icon.
Let mortal heroes sing your fame

Offline Ahonen

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 246
  • "The grass just spoke chinese."
    • View Profile
Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #7 on: 22-07-2012, 20:07:34 »
I also noticed Shermans surviving 75mm fire, while my PzIV died to a single shot. Wonder why the Pz didn't survive even one hit.
-A certain plumber took 'shrooms when he failed to rescue his girlfriend from being raped by a gorilla. His whole experience was documented in a game.

Offline Oberst

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 854
    • View Profile
Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #8 on: 22-07-2012, 20:07:37 »
Basically, axis bias has removed. Glad its being noticed.

Made me lol. This needs to be added to the changelog aswell.

Offline THeTA0123

  • The north remembers
  • Masterspammer
  • ****
  • Posts: 16.841
    • View Profile
Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #9 on: 22-07-2012, 21:07:03 »

Basically, axis bias has removed. Glad its being noticed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3ALwKeSEYs

It has been bred in peoples mind that german tanks where vastly superior then allied tanks where a one shot kill on there vehicles

Reality is that a panzer IV needed to be in a range of 400 meters to penetrate a M4A3/Sherman V

Still things are overlooked. With the PZIV's main gun, IRL a churchill MKIV"s hull was immune to this gun. Yet even the L43 penetrates it in FH2(and since FH2"s engagement range is 500 meters


But i am very satisfied with these changes already so i dont mind  ;D
« Last Edit: 22-07-2012, 21:07:36 by THeTA0123 »
-i am fairly sure that if they took porn off the internet, there would only be one website left and it would be called bring back the porn "Perry cox, Scrubs.

Offline Musti

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1.734
    • View Profile
Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #10 on: 22-07-2012, 22:07:08 »
Does this affect PAK 40 as well? IIRC it used cartriges with longer case, and therefore more power (correct me if I'm wrong though)
WARNING!
Assholes are closer than they appear!

Offline Kev4000

  • Developer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1.039
  • FH2 "special" coder
    • View Profile
Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #11 on: 22-07-2012, 22:07:07 »
Pak40 has a longer case, and the 75mmL48 has a thicker case. Both fire the same projectile at aproximately the same velocity and therefor are treated the same ingame.
All guns are in some way or another changed in 2.45. Go figure out the hard way ;)

Still things are overlooked. With the PZIV's main gun, IRL a churchill MKIV"s hull was immune to this gun. Yet even the L43 penetrates it in FH2(and since FH2"s engagement range is 500 meters

Churchill MKIV has 90-100mm frontal armour.

Offline Butcher

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1.839
  • ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    • View Profile
Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #12 on: 22-07-2012, 22:07:39 »
To be honest tank engagements are ridicolous now. Theta0 is happy, no wonder. But seriously ... even some Panther shots bounced of Shermans ingame. And the German 75mm-guns were very capable of knocking out Shermans and T-34s.

This is way to arcade imo. FH2s charm was that the teams weren´t mirror balanced, but everythign had a quite realistic touch. Panzer IVs and StuGs losing on a frequent basis to Shermans is just dull. Immersion of tank combat has really suffered under this.

StuGs alone had 20.000 destroyed tanks (mostly T-34s, comparable to Shermans) under their belt til the spring of ´44. The 75mm/L48 can´t be that bad. The thing is just a joke now.
He got banned for our sins. He was not the member FH forums deserved, he was the member we needed.

Offline mopskind

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 385
    • View Profile
Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #13 on: 22-07-2012, 22:07:52 »

Offline kingtiger1891

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 458
    • View Profile
Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #14 on: 22-07-2012, 22:07:34 »
BTW, the damage decrease in long range is way too overdone, on distance of some large map like totalize or cobra, even Panther can't one shot sherman from SIDE. I'm not talking about angle bug, but the long range damage system. I can live with 75/L48 not one shotting Shermans from side in long range, but Panther?

This is way to arcade imo. FH2s charm was that the teams weren´t mirror balanced, but everythign had a quite realistic touch.
Completely agree, proper one shotting kills is one of the basic ideas of FH, if not, it simply becomes a WWII version of vanilla BF. With the unlimited stamina, more and more lethal infantry AT weapon, damge increase for some supposely uncapable guns and damage decrease of other supposely superior guns, I can't stop thinking FH2 is turning to some mirror balance arcade game, is it ready to make a competition with those BF3,CODs? Of course there would be supporter for that since those games are the most popular ones nowadays, but I just don't think FH2 can win the competition in this category, the graphic alone make you lose.
« Last Edit: 22-07-2012, 22:07:24 by kingtiger1891 »