Author Topic: Revolting Uniting  (Read 266199 times)

Offline th_battleaxe

  • Bon Vivant
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1.203
  • Bit of a Révolutionnaire
    • View Profile
Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #690 on: 22-05-2012, 14:05:29 »
overall, true story...
J'aime l'oignon, frît à l'huile
J'aime l'oignon car il est bon
J'aime l'oignon, frît à l'huile
J'aime l'oignon, j'aime l'oignon

Offline Tankbuster

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 921
    • View Profile
Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #691 on: 22-05-2012, 19:05:05 »
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends"

My  precious, Gollum

Life is unfair, get over it.

In belgium, people where given funds to place solar panels, in wich in 5 years, you would have earned back your investment and you would recieve 330 euro per 3 months for delivering electric power to the net. On average

Then count away your electricity bill


Now thousands of families and cooperations did this.

Now they reduced these funds, the entire solar market in belgium collapsed, and anyone who does NOT HAVE SOLAR PANELS HAS TO PAY 20-40% MORE ON THERE ELECTRICITY bill


In other words, I have to pay for my neighbours there solar panels. While they earn tonnes of money

Fair? No. Can we do anything about it? no. Thats life
Life sucks


On the other hand the Solar market here in India is booming, too bad it hasn't penetrated too much into the Urban parts of the country.

Offline Flyboy1942

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 633
  • AKA: Ghanrage
    • View Profile
Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #692 on: 22-05-2012, 23:05:44 »
You mean they dont exist at all, or they arent as prevalent per capita?

Offline Tankbuster

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 921
    • View Profile
Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #693 on: 23-05-2012, 08:05:44 »
Did you ask me that?

Offline sheikyerbouti

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1.402
  • Yay, Rep feature is dead
    • View Profile
Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #694 on: 23-05-2012, 10:05:07 »
 @ Tankbuster,
 Flyboy was directing his question at you.   

 From my understanding, solar infiltration is proportionally larger in rural India (which needs the power desperately), contrasted against the largely coal powered energy that is provided to urban/ industrial regions.

 The problem with solar is that it doesn't meet the large industrial demands of say a factory but it will certainly light a family home or power a radio. (it's all about demand and solar can't even charge an Iphone or higher end electronics but it will some day)

 I have been reading about OTEC power generation (thermal difference power generation using temperature variation between Ocean surface water and deep Ocean waters) and that, to me, seems to be a very elegant, lower cost solution for the equatorial regions. Provided of course that the world will move on from coal and oil powered electrical sources. Combined with nuclear power generation, the world will never run out of power.

 All we need is the willpower and less environmental activists.
My Quebec includes Canada

Offline Flyboy1942

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 633
  • AKA: Ghanrage
    • View Profile
Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #695 on: 23-05-2012, 15:05:08 »
The solar distribution based on demand makes sense. I had wondered if it had to do with population density and the proportional amount of surface area between rural and urban areas; thanks for clearing that up.

I remember something about hotels using a similar thermal difference to help with air conditioning. It sounds like a great idea, but I wonder if it can scale cheap enough to be a player at this time. There still has to be an economic incentive to build a power generating mechanism, and a lot of cool ideas are still far to expensive, at least for heavy commercial and industrial applications.

Which is why I support building nukes. It seriously is the cleanest, most powerful alternative energy source we have at the moment. The main drawbacks are safety and waste. Safety is already sky high with these way over-engineered plants, and extreme incidents like Fukushima simply strengthens other plants. As for waste being "a problem for millenia of future generations;" if in the next few hundred years we dont develop the heavy lift capacity to simply chuck the waste into the sun, we've done something wrong.

Offline DLFReporter

  • FH-Betatester
  • ***
  • Posts: 4.727
  • Betatesting FH2 makes me edgy...
    • View Profile
Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #696 on: 23-05-2012, 15:05:05 »
...
 The problem with solar is that it doesn't meet the large industrial demands of say a factory but it will certainly light a family home or power a radio. (it's all about demand and solar can't even charge an Iphone or higher end electronics but it will some day)
...

The first part is true for heavy industries needing megawatts of power 24/7. We'd need a rethinking in the way we share work on this planet for those to ever work with regenerative energies like solar power plants. They can have enough power to keep those big things running, as long as there is sunlight. Factory owners will just have to adapt to the energy supply and not the other way round. They could build factories in different countries around the globe north and south of the equator to keep up the production et voila, everyone is happy. Yay Globalism used with a good purpose! :)

The second bit isn't really true, you can charge an Iphone using solar cells.
A small charger will even do the trick it just depends on how fast you want it fully charged. As for higher electronics, the ~500sqm Solar Array on my companies roof is giving us about 30kW at the Moment (hazy day). That's about the energy we are using to power everything running on a normal working day (office applications with 4 servers, 4 workstations and 35 Notebooks).

I have been reading about OTEC power generation (thermal difference power generation using temperature variation between Ocean surface water and deep Ocean waters) and that, to me, seems to be a very elegant, lower cost solution for the equatorial regions. Provided of course that the world will move on from coal and oil powered electrical sources. Combined with nuclear power generation, the world will never run out of power.
 All we need is the willpower and less environmental activists.

Aren't the environmental activists the ones creating the willpower? :)
Anyhow, I wouldn't add nuclear power generation to that bit, as we'd also run out of uranium in a century if we'd rely on that alone as of today.
Gravity is a habit that is hard to shake off

Offline Eat Uranium

  • Tea Drinker
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4.512
  • Today's news will contain [REDACTED]
    • View Profile
    • FH2 Music
Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #697 on: 23-05-2012, 16:05:27 »
Aren't the environmental activists the ones creating the willpower? :)
True, but they are also the people saying that you can't build renewable power generation source x at place y because of either rare habitat z or NIMBY.

Offline Zoologic

  • Masterspammer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4.141
  • In FH Since 0.67
    • View Profile
Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #698 on: 23-05-2012, 16:05:57 »
Environmental activists are also the typical white-washing guilt people, like throwing rocks at the mirror of their own. They drive more polluting cars, yet protested about pollution produced by airplanes.

My house use energy-saving light bulbs in every corner, energy saving AC with inverter (consuming only 125 watts when not condensing, 750 watts at start), and energy saving refrigerators. Not because we cared about environment first-hand (our house was built in 1994, way before global warming was a hipster thing). But we cared more about electricity bills, it's our TV & computer (500 watt PS sucking 100-350 W) that sucks most of the electricity.

Yet in 2008, when I go to Australia, I see that most houses still use the classic filament light bulb. It needs the government environmental/energy-saving agencies to send each houses free energy-saving light bulbs. I don't know why, but I get the impression that Australians do bitch a lot about environmental problem awareness than most countries I know of (I've been reading US news as well), yet they still somewhat reluctant to save energies at their own homes.

We are not better either, maybe I'm not an environmentalists. But I certainly don't want to breathe polluted air (contributed mostly from me by my car) and drink acid waters (mostly caused by my favorite subject, airplanes).
Indonesians mostly don't care about environments, all the government say about preserving the rainforests are utter bullshit. We lost a lot of natural habitat for wildlife at worrying rate, yet those face-saving corrupt politicians still debate with green peace regarding statistics and data they use to rebut the accusations.

No, you don't fucking need data and complex statistics, just go there and see for yourself and hear from the local people. Local mining companies already tried to spend some of their profits to re-plant and terraform the land after stripping it for coal. But the local government rejected the activity, and tell the people that they want to do it by themselves (citing land use plan and such) at the company's expense. When the company paid the expenses, those corrupt officials did nothing with the money. Later, when the issue arises, they just blame the company. Foreign companies are easy targets for such blaming, just like foreign countries and immigrants are easily blamed in US and Europe for their problems.

Offline sheikyerbouti

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1.402
  • Yay, Rep feature is dead
    • View Profile
Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #699 on: 24-05-2012, 06:05:25 »
 i probably should have been more specific but small scale solar cannot provide sufficient charge on its' own to recharge high drain devices. However, when you have a 30kw facility on the roof, it will do almost everything you need. (mind you 30 kw is far beyond the reach of household finances in even the wealthiest country)

 Grid stabilization and power storage are what we need most, some promising concepts are on the horizon but it will be some time yet before these options become economically viable.

 I will have to track the name of the facility down but the Tennessee Valley Authority runs a nuclear facility that is used for constant demand but also pumps water overnight into a reservoir that can provide hydro-electricity on demand (France runs this same system as well). These multi-purpose facilities are the future IMO

 We need to save the oil for the other useful properties that it can offer us, not for simply providing a cheap combustion effect.
My Quebec includes Canada

Offline cannonfodder

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1.228
    • View Profile
Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #700 on: 24-05-2012, 10:05:26 »
Part of the problem with those energy-saving bulbs is the price.

When you could still buy them, the old filament bulbs would set you back 80-90 cents per bulb, the energy-savers will set you back around $3-3.50 per bulb.


It's all a load of BS anyway, if the government was serious about saving energy, they'd ban the sale of electronic equipment that doesn't have an ON/OFF switch for starters.

I was very close to putting my widescreen Samsung TV back in the box and returning it when I discovered it didn't have one (thus it's on permanent stand-by)...


Saving the environment? Same thing, if they'd pull their heads out of their arses for 5 minutes and fix the joke that is Sydney's public transport system, they might just find people are quite happy to leave the car at home and train it to work.

And if enough people do this, given time, that dirty fucking smog cloud that hangs over western Sydney every day (the one you can see from the Lower Mountains on a clear day) might just disappear.


But that'll never happen, and that smog cloud will only get bigger when they finally stop passing the buck and start building that second airport in the Sydney Basin (the one they've been planning to build for the last 20 years)... ::)

Offline DLFReporter

  • FH-Betatester
  • ***
  • Posts: 4.727
  • Betatesting FH2 makes me edgy...
    • View Profile
Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #701 on: 24-05-2012, 11:05:34 »
i probably should have been more specific but small scale solar cannot provide sufficient charge on its' own to recharge high drain devices. However, when you have a 30kw facility on the roof, it will do almost everything you need. (mind you 30 kw is far beyond the reach of household finances in even the wealthiest country)
...

Come on, this unit cost my company aprox. 50k € and it loses quite a bit of energy due to us having a flat roof, a unit of half the size is enough for a normal German household and would have a higher efficiency due to most houses here having 30Deg roofs and being orientated in North-South direction. I know of people who spent more money on a bomb shelter, so why not use the money to make yourself free from those greedy energy companies?! ^^

Grid stabilization and power storage are what we need most, some promising concepts are on the horizon but it will be some time yet before these options become economically viable.

There are quite a few good ideas, like storing the generated access power via pressurized air below the wind parks themselves, or using this power to generate Hydrogen for those times of the day without wind or sun. All you need is the incentive and will of the community, I've seen some nice plans for entire towns going into their own energy production and storage. :)

I will have to track the name of the facility down but the Tennessee Valley Authority runs a nuclear facility that is used for constant demand but also pumps water overnight into a reservoir that can provide hydro-electricity on demand (France runs this same system as well). These multi-purpose facilities are the future IMO

AFAIK every country does this with it's power plants in times of low demand, as far as they have the ability to use lakes for power storage.




---------------------
...
It's all a load of BS anyway, if the government was serious about saving energy, they'd ban the sale of electronic equipment that doesn't have an ON/OFF switch for starters.
I was very close to putting my widescreen Samsung TV back in the box and returning it when I discovered it didn't have one (thus it's on permanent stand-by)...

That's why I love those multi-outlets with power switch. One kick of the foot and everything is off.
Gravity is a habit that is hard to shake off

Offline sheikyerbouti

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1.402
  • Yay, Rep feature is dead
    • View Profile
Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #702 on: 24-05-2012, 11:05:43 »
 here in Vancouver a 4-pack of 60w bulbs cost around $3 and will last me a long time and also do a good job of heating up my house.

 the compact fluorescent bulbs cost about $5-6 for one bulb, they dont fit into any of my light diffuser's and the landlord won't pay to replace any of the light fixtures. CFL bulbs also make me violently ill, take forever to warm up, and do not provide a quality of light that I can appreciate.

 thank god for Chinese dollar stores that don't give 2 shits about the environment.

 Personally i don't blame the humble lightbulb at all, I blame perpetually on devices like TV's and fridges, PC's, charger devices and careless homeowner's that leave everything on.  it is 2 in the morning here and half of downtown is lit up clear as day, yet hardly a soul is awake. Our hypocrisy boggles my mind sometimes!!!


@ N24,  I was referring to small households. you are talking about the cost of a car in relative terms and that kind of money can be well beyond the reach of many, many people in rich countries; let alone the outrageous cost differential when compared against the poorer nation's of the world.  Solar is a good thing but it is still economically out of reach of many people who support it.  (I would do the installation work myself but the landlord would never let that happen, let alone pay for it)
My Quebec includes Canada

Offline DLFReporter

  • FH-Betatester
  • ***
  • Posts: 4.727
  • Betatesting FH2 makes me edgy...
    • View Profile
Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #703 on: 24-05-2012, 11:05:25 »
...
@ N24,  I was referring to small households. you are talking about the cost of a car in relative terms and that kind of money can be well beyond the reach of many, many people in rich countries; let alone the outrageous cost differential when compared against the poorer nation's of the world.  Solar is a good thing but it is still economically out of reach of many people who support it.  (I would do the installation work myself but the landlord would never let that happen, let alone pay for it)

I think we had a slight miscommunication here. If you own a house in Germany, then you aren't poor. With houses ranging from 200k upwards the 15-25k for a solar array won't spoil your costing.

If you rent a house, then of course you'd have nothing of the benefits. But alas there are some nice community projects here in the area, where you can buy into a solar array (e.g. one on a big roof of a farmer in your neighbourhood) and where you receive your share of the winnings at the end of the year. This is a nice way to make solar power more affordable for everyone and to build up independent community power grids.
Gravity is a habit that is hard to shake off

Offline Zoologic

  • Masterspammer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4.141
  • In FH Since 0.67
    • View Profile
Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #704 on: 24-05-2012, 13:05:26 »
Saving the environment? Same thing, if they'd pull their heads out of their arses for 5 minutes and fix the joke that is Sydney's public transport system, they might just find people are quite happy to leave the car at home and train it to work.

I am quite happy with those Shittyrail and Shittybus. I paid $3 for a transport from North Epping - Macquarie Uni. That's effing too much, but alas, they are at least decent enough for me. It's only their schedule that is quite bothersome.

Quote
But that'll never happen, and that smog cloud will only get bigger when they finally stop passing the buck and start building that second airport in the Sydney Basin (the one they've been planning to build for the last 20 years)... ::)

What happen to all those expansion of tram networks? It saddens me when I read that Sydney closed that service while the buses can't just cope with the demand, even in the downtown. It need to pass 5 buses (from Wynyard to Central through George St.) before finally catch one with space for 1 standing person.

The monorail is certainly a joke, after 3 years, I finally board one, along with me German tourists. When we stop near World Sq. the carriage lost power and the door won't open. Those people smirked. Yeah, by European standards, Sydney public transport is seriously concerning.