Author Topic: A question regarding 2.45  (Read 2025 times)

Offline CologneSky

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Re: A question regarding 2.45
« Reply #15 on: 13-03-2012, 15:03:20 »

Actually this isn't any different to 'public' play. The skills all vary and a map can play totally different with a dedicated squad. Anyhow the only solution would be mirror-balanced maps and even then the players would define the balance.

Not sure about this one. Some maps are highly dependent on a single role/vehicle. As an example Ramelle and the Tiger on German side. On public play, if a total newbee takes the tiger and decides to "camp" outside of city entrance the entire round, the game is over for Germans. With beta testers - Im quite sure - this wont happen. This might be an extreme example but I guess you understand where Im heading..

Offline CologneSky

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Re: A question regarding 2.45
« Reply #16 on: 13-03-2012, 15:03:26 »
Lüttich?Really? I always thougth of this one as pretty balanced. I've seen both sides win quite alot.
What needs rebalancing are some of the new Bulge Maps. Even i have to admit that it is too easy to win as germans on Meuse River, Bastogne and Eppeldorf.

Just checked your stats. You played Luttich 5 times & won it 3 times. All 3 times as Germans...
Interesting perception you have my friend..

Offline Thorondor123

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Re: A question regarding 2.45
« Reply #17 on: 13-03-2012, 15:03:52 »
Seems balanced to me. 3 -2 is the most balanced result you can get with best of five.
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Offline mopskind

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Re: A question regarding 2.45
« Reply #18 on: 13-03-2012, 16:03:00 »
Just checked your stats. You played Luttich 5 times & won it 3 times. All 3 times as Germans...
Interesting perception you have my friend..

Believe me that i had my fair share of this map before the introduction of the ranking system ;) The only thing that should have changed after 2.4 is imo the angle mod, but i doubt that it had statistically significant impact on the results. Speaking of, 3 of 5 games is nothing you could base a solid evaluation on.




Offline F.E.Glöckner

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Re: A question regarding 2.45
« Reply #19 on: 13-03-2012, 16:03:26 »
I played Lüttich 112 times and my Team won it 84 times. And i play most of the time german.

Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: A question regarding 2.45
« Reply #20 on: 13-03-2012, 16:03:24 »
Quite frankly I am not under the impression that hte devs care much about "balance" in the sense that you are thinking. If one team always gets raped before taking a single flag, like on old Anctoville, then that's a balance issue they want to fix, if the Germans win Lüttich 75 out of a 100 times but the map is fun regardless, they couldn't care less.

Offline hyperanthropos

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Re: A question regarding 2.45
« Reply #21 on: 13-03-2012, 18:03:47 »
Quite frankly I am not under the impression that hte devs care much about "balance" in the sense that you are thinking. If one team always gets raped before taking a single flag, like on old Anctoville, then that's a balance issue they want to fix, if the Germans win Lüttich 75 out of a 100 times but the map is fun regardless, they couldn't care less.

Fanially somone thinks the same as me. Its good to hear that the Devs dont base their decitions on the Win/Losse ratio, but on things like one team getting raped all the time.
In my opinion getting rapedby arty/tanks/planes/fieldarty is most annoying thing (may next to attackign uncap) so maybe the Devs would consider to remove "raping elements". A first step would be to get rid of field arty completly (accept for maps liek Fall of Tobruk or Point du Hoc)

For example I am pretty sure that i didnt win Tunis very often. As we all know the bleed is unbalanced but the map is still fun as hell so i dont care too much. I think it is pretty much the same for the Allies on Eppeldorf you can have alwasy fun eventhough your loosing. (Probably not as a Allied tanker, but that will be fixed)

Offline CologneSky

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Re: A question regarding 2.45
« Reply #22 on: 13-03-2012, 18:03:47 »
Quite frankly I am not under the impression that hte devs care much about "balance" in the sense that you are thinking. If one team always gets raped before taking a single flag, like on old Anctoville, then that's a balance issue they want to fix, if the Germans win Lüttich 75 out of a 100 times but the map is fun regardless, they couldn't care less.

Fanially somone thinks the same as me. Its good to hear that the Devs dont base their decitions on the Win/Losse ratio, but on things like one team getting raped all the time.
In my opinion getting rapedby arty/tanks/planes/fieldarty is most annoying thing (may next to attackign uncap) so maybe the Devs would consider to remove "raping elements". A first step would be to get rid of field arty completly (accept for maps liek Fall of Tobruk or Point du Hoc)

For example I am pretty sure that i didnt win Tunis very often. As we all know the bleed is unbalanced but the map is still fun as hell so i dont care too much. I think it is pretty much the same for the Allies on Eppeldorf you can have alwasy fun eventhough your loosing. (Probably not as a Allied tanker, but that will be fixed)

Fine, if you think this is fun, then good for you, I do not!

I play maps to WIN them, I dont care about my stats I just want to win the round.
In my understanding this is the way the game should be played. If people were not focused on winning the round they would only spawn-camp and we all know how much fan this is.

So IMHO every single map should be winnable by each side. This does NOT mean it has to be 50:50 in terms of rounds played but it MUST NOT be 90:10 or worse either..

attached of another round of Luttich just know on HSLAN.. super fun indeed. I quit.
« Last Edit: 13-03-2012, 18:03:01 by CologneSky »

Offline ajappat

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Re: A question regarding 2.45
« Reply #23 on: 13-03-2012, 18:03:37 »
Cologne, I really can't understand why you think luttich is so badly balanced. You pic doesn't show anything, we see axis having 3 flags and not too big ticket lead?

I still think that luttichs is one of most balanced maps on FH2.

Offline CologneSky

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Re: A question regarding 2.45
« Reply #24 on: 13-03-2012, 19:03:04 »
Cologne, I really can't understand why you think luttich is so badly balanced. You pic doesn't show anything, we see axis having 3 flags and not too big ticket lead?

I still think that luttichs is one of most balanced maps on FH2.

wow!! just wow! I really really would love to see the stats. I really cannot understand how an experienced player (who also plays on HSLAN) can say such a thing. really beyond my imagination.

Just had a chat during the game and Metal Marthy confirmed he has NEVER seen Allies win it!

Offline Flyboy1942

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Re: A question regarding 2.45
« Reply #25 on: 13-03-2012, 20:03:54 »
I think theres more a problem with the players and tactics on the allied side than any inherent balance issue. Something tells me players that gravitate toward auto weapons and easy-to-grab armor are the deciding factor.

I mean, the map is almost a perfect mirror.
The allies have advantages in weapons and *number* of tanks.
The only disadvantage I can see is that the church is closer to axis and is easy to defended, while the farm closer to allies is easily taken...

I have never played this round and not had fun. I dont care about stats, and I try to win, but I dont require a win to have fun.

Offline Knoffhoff

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Re: A question regarding 2.45
« Reply #26 on: 13-03-2012, 20:03:38 »
I mean, the map is almost a perfect mirror.
The allies have advantages in weapons and *number* of tanks.
The only disadvantage I can see is that the church is closer to axis and is easy to defended, while the farm closer to allies is easily taken...

And this is the perfect example why it is hard to balance the map. Even though everything seems to be balanced, 148 German wins out of 183 Rounds speak for themself.
While there are many other aspects that can bring us to balance a map the win/loose ratio is a important factor.
But it is time consuming to do it. We have around 40 maps to look after. To balance a map you have to play it frequently to find out what are the issues that are causing the imbalance. The solution might be a easy one like changing ticket numbers, bleed speed, or number of flags needed to start the bleed. Unfortunatly many times it is much more complicated. While the easy fix already is a  time consuming task, the hard way can end in a frustrating issue.
We are trying to make broken maps better and with 2.45 you will most likely get more overworked maps than ever. Still we might note be able to fix all of them and even fixed maps have to be proven to work on a full server again.
« Last Edit: 14-03-2012, 07:03:15 by Knoffhoff »

Offline CologneSky

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Re: A question regarding 2.45
« Reply #27 on: 13-03-2012, 23:03:24 »
And this is the perfect example why it is hard to balance the map. Even though everything seems to be balanced, 148 German wins out of 183 Rounds speak for themself.
While there are many other aspects that can bring us to balance the map the win/loose ratio is a important factor.

THANK YOU!! THANK YOU! 148:35! Thats sort of what I thought. I was really questioning my perception after a couple of (even experienced) players where saying that the map was balanced...

Anyway the thread actually was not about Luttich but about general rebalancing issues. And thanks again also for that answer. Good to hear, that you guys are looking at the stats and are rebalancing some aspects. I also understand how hard it is to find the "perfect" balance, I guess this is something which is (if at all) only to be achieved iteratively (i.e. by trial-and-error).

Thanks again and "keep it up"!!  :)

Offline ajappat

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Re: A question regarding 2.45
« Reply #28 on: 13-03-2012, 23:03:31 »
Why can't we see all those stats about maps on awards page btw?

I'm actually surprised to see germans actually have won so much more, but still it doesn't feel like it. Neither side still isn't too overpowered to make it feel unbalanced. I wouldn't change a thing on luttich. And before someone yell axis bias, my awards show I have played more on allied side on this map  ;)

Offline Flippy Warbear

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Re: A question regarding 2.45
« Reply #29 on: 14-03-2012, 04:03:56 »
All this luttich discussion could have been somewhat useful if it was in its own thread at the map feedback forum.