Author Topic: A Song of Ice and Fire [HUGE GoT SPOILERS!]  (Read 2722 times)

Offline Thorondor123

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A Song of Ice and Fire [HUGE GoT SPOILERS!]
« on: 09-02-2012, 17:02:51 »
"A Song of Ice and Fire is an ongoing series of epic fantasy novels by American novelist and screenwriter George R. R. Martin."

This is a rather large and famous series of books, and ever more since HBO turned the first book into miniseries and second series coming soon. I bet many of you have read the books so let's have a small chat about the series. Because hey, why not.

Disclaimer:
This might end up being me ranting, rambling and pondering various aspect to the point where no one else cares any more. But that's something we just have to live with.

INTRODUCTION:
The books in the series:
A Game of Thrones (1996)
A Clash of Kings (1998)
A Storm of Swords (2000)
A Feast For Crows (2005)
A Dance With Dragons (2011)
The Winds of Winter (TBA)
A Hope of Spring (TBA)


HBO miniseries based on the first book aired last year and second series will air this spring. I'm not going there now other than saying that it's one of the best film/TV versions of any book ever made. Recommended.

Like said, ASoIAF epic high fantasy series. I have described it as a mix of The Lord of The Rings and Dune, or more like Dune set in a fantasy setting. While it's clearly high fantasy, the world is close to Middle-earth at the end of the third age. The dragons are supposedly extinct, and magic is thin on the ground. Sorcery is mostly limited to trickery of hedge wizards, and true wizards are either really rare or live in far away lands.

More outlandish creatures are the white walkers, the "Others". And reanimated dead, the wights (as in LoTR).

Most of the story is set in the continent of Westeros. More than a dozen years before the start of the first book Robert Baratheon started a rebellion to overthrow Aerys II Targaryen, the delusional and cruel "Mad King". The Targaryen dynasty had ruled The Seven Kingdoms for three hundred years since Aegon the Conqueror had invaded the land and united the seven independent kingdoms. The conclusive battle, "Field of Fire" was one of the last major battles where dragons were used.

Game of Thrones starts as King Robert rides North to meet his old friend from the rebellion. Lord Eddard Stark, the Warden of North, is nominated as the Hand of The King, the second most powerful man in the realm. It turns out, that there was more than few suspicious things about the death of the old Hand. Lord Stark, driver by his utmost devotion to honour and loyalty, can't refuse the "offer" and rides south to take the office.

Eddard Stark starts to investigate the death of the former Hand, and finds plots within plots, spies, poison and corruption. At the same time in the east, a Targaryen heir is trying raise an army and claim the throne from the usurper. A Song of Ice And Fire is as much about politics and scheming as it is about warfare and adventures. It is to fantasy what Dune is to Sci-Fi.


My introduction might not the the best possible, but if that sounds even remotely interesting, get a copy of Game of Thrones (or watch the series if that's your thing). I would recommend reading the book first, though. This is also the part where people who have not read the series should stop reading.

The story is massive and so many things are left open that I would like to see if others who have read the series have anything to say or analyse. The are two books left and an unlimited way how the story could unfold. It's impossible to fathom what will happen, but I have gathered a hypothesis from various little bits amongst the story. Would be nice to hear what others think of it and hear their own thoughts.




SPOILERS!


WARNING! The following will spoil everything up to the end of A Dance With Dragons. Do not read if you have not read all the books. This WILL also spoil the HBO series!






















ICE AND FIRE

What I think the story is about:


Basically: I think that Jon Snow is ICE, and Daenerys Targaryen is FIRE.

First, let's take a look at Jon. He is the bastard son of Ned Stark. We do not know who his mother is, and Ned took that information with him to the grave.* I boldly claim, that I know who his mother is. I even go so far that I clam that Ned Stark is not his father.

*more about this later

Jon Snow is actually the son of Lyanna Stark (ice) and Rhaegar Targaryen (fire). Lyanna and Rhaegar had been lovers since the tourney at Harrenhall. Rhaegar was the heir and married to Elia. Lyanna was promised to Robert Baratheon.

The official story says that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. This of course leads to the Robert's rebellion. But I do not think it happened like that. Rhaegar and Lyanna ran off together.

During the war, Lyanna was at the Tower of Joy, guarded by THREE best swords of the Kingsguard. That's right, even living legends like "Sword of the Morning" and "White Bull" were not with the king or on Rhaegars side at the Trident when he died. He sent them to guard the woman he loved.

After the episode with the Kingslayer in the throne room, Ned rode to south to rescue Lyanna. After defeating the three members of the Kingsguard, Ned found Lyanna. He was too late, she was dying after giving birth to Jon. Before dying, she make Ned to promise her something. We do not know what it was, but it haunted Ned for the rest of his life. What I think he promised is that he would take care of the baby and raise him as his own son. The only person who might know anything is Ned's best friend, Howland Reed. He was the only survivor from the Tower of Joy and he has not left the Neck afterwards.

Fast forward to the end of ADWD:



Did Jon really die? Maybe. We he stay dead? No.

1) If it really was Jon who got stabbed, and died from his wounds, there are many factors worth noting. He was assassinated in plain sight of everyone, including the free men, queen's men and most importantly Melisandre. She is a red priestess and as we know (what Thoros of Myr did to Beric Dondarrion) they can resurrect people. She will save Jon.

2) It wasn't Jon. He was someone else "masked" as Jon by Melisandre. Like he turned Mance Rayder into Rattleshirt. Whoever it was, he was clumsy with sword, not like Jon at all. And it didn't fool everyone; Ghost growled at "Jon".



Of dreams and prophecies:

Jon Snow, the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, is Azor Ahai.

"When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

- In the end of ADWD, the elements of the prophecy are present: "Smoke" from Jon's wounds, and "salt" from Bowen Marsh's tears. The bleeding star was Ser Patrek bleeding and swung in air by Wun-Wun the giant, his heraldic symbol being a star.

- Jon dreamed of a burning red sword (Lightbringer).

- What Melisandre said when she tried to see Stannis (who she thinks is Azor Ahai) in the fires: "When I search for him, all I see is snow."
Jon Snow.



COCLUSION

Like said, it is impossible to tell what the old geezer has in mind for the story. But if my hypothesis is correct, we might see Jon Snow and Daenerys Targaryen reuniting the bloodlines of houses Stark and Targaryen, bringing peace to the Seven Kingdoms and beating the Others beyond the Wall.

Or something completely different. 




That's it. That is whay I have gathered by reading the books. I hope someone else has also read the books and share my enthusiasm. I would be nice to hear other's opinions and long ramblings, and to hear what you think of my wild suggestions. If not, well, this thread will serve as a diary or a blog for me ;D
« Last Edit: 03-09-2012, 21:09:06 by Thorondor123 »
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Offline hOMEr_jAy

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #1 on: 09-02-2012, 17:02:59 »
Like I said in the "Book Club"-thread, I started reading the series (or saga? ^^) late last year and was immediately an addict. If you´re into "low fantasy" and realistic (=not black/white) characters "ASOIAF" will be one hell of a literary ride!

I´ve read your "Ice and Fire"-theory in other forums as well and it honestly makes lots of sense. I´d love to see Westeros united under Jons and Danaerys banner, but I fear that Martin, who doesn´t hesitate to let characters, who seem to be important simply die, might find an unpleasing ending for the series.
Imagine the Red Wedding, but simply on a greater scale. :/

Quote
2) It wasn't Jon. He was someone else "masked" as Jon by Melisandre. Like he turned Mance Rayder into Rattleshirt. Whoever it was, he was clumsy with sword, not like Jon at all. And it didn't fool everyone; Ghost growled at "Jon".
That´s a detail I didn´t know yet. I really have to re-read the books, because they contain so many small details and hints which you either don´t understand or don´t see if you read the books for the first time.
I quite liked Jons "death scene", btw. Reminded me a bit if Julius Caesars death, who was stabbed to death by a mob of conspirators.

I´d also like to know what happened to Brienne. I bet she´s got an interesting story to tell, too.



And my main concern is that Martin might not be able to end the saga, for whatever reason. He wouldn´t be the first writer who died before finishing his works.... :/
And so he spoke, and so he spoke, that lord of Castamere,
But now the rains weep o'er his hall, with no one there to hear.
Yes now the rains weep o'er his hall,
and not a soul to hear.

Offline Kelmola

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #2 on: 09-02-2012, 18:02:20 »
How much does this actually borrow from the historical War of the Roses, expect the obvious initial setup: Seven Kingdoms = England, Aegon the Conqueror = William the Conqueror, Targaryen = Plantagenet, Lannister = Lancaster (a bit too easy if you ask me), Stark = York, Mad King = Henry VI, etc.?

Offline Thorondor123

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #3 on: 29-06-2012, 14:06:03 »
Thorondor's ASoIAF blog, part 2.

Once again, this will spoil everything. Don't read if you have not finished A Dance With Dragons.








I'm re-reading (or rather listening to the audio books) at the moment. Last night I came across on of the Arya chapters in A Storm of Swords. It was something I had forgotten completely since I first read the book:

At High Heart, where Arya and members of the Brotherhood Without Banners are spending then night, they talk to the "Ghost of High Heart". She is an ancient red-eyed dwarf woman, and most like has greensight. She tells Lem,  Tom O'Sevens, etc. about three dream she had.

- She predicts the death of Renly Baratheon.

- She predicts the death and resurrection of Lady Catelyn

- She predicts the death of Balon Greyjoy, which in my opinion is the most interesting one. "I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings."

I had forgotten this completely when I first read about Cately and Balon, but now on the second time the situation gets waaay more interesting. Looks like that Balon did not just fall of the bridge during a storm. He was murdered by a Faceless Man commissioned by his brother Euron "Crow's Eye" Greyjoy.


Can't wait to see more details that I missed during the first read-through ;D
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Offline Fuchs

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #4 on: 09-08-2012, 00:08:25 »
Almost at the end of ASOS. By the Seven, what a book! So many stuff happens and it's so well-written. Not to mention all the things colliding. And I really like Jaime, feel sort of sorry for him.
"Force answers force, war breeds war, and death only brings death.
To break this vicious circle one must do more than act without thought or doubt."

Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #5 on: 09-08-2012, 01:08:04 »
That reminds me, need to buy the next book. Read the first three and then paused for a bit for various reasons.

Offline Fuchs

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #6 on: 09-08-2012, 01:08:07 »
Getting ADWD for my birthday, which is in early September.. I fear I am finished before that though, these books suck me up.
"Force answers force, war breeds war, and death only brings death.
To break this vicious circle one must do more than act without thought or doubt."

Offline DLFReporter

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #7 on: 09-08-2012, 08:08:52 »
Great books! I can only suggest that everyone with a touch of Fantasy in them to read them!
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Offline THeTA0123

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #8 on: 09-08-2012, 17:08:00 »
I have finished the first book and i have recieved today in the mail the second book.

The series is awesome and amazing. the books even better

i advise first to watch a season of the serie, then the book when the season is over
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Offline NTH

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #9 on: 03-09-2012, 21:09:02 »
I wonder if Martin is really into layered metaphors. Perhaps snow is snow  :)
Just finished the books. The next wait is unbearable.
I hope to see more if Catelyn and her merry band of murders. What part will Bran play. Where is his brother Rickon and his escort. And what a great come back of Varys, just when you thought you were rid of Cersei  :P

On the real Mother of Jon, it was said he was conceived when Ned was brought across a river escaping from foes, but the theory that he is Lyanna son is more exciting  :)

On theories, does it seem to obvious that the dark rider who travels with Bran is his presumed dead uncle Benjen?


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(From: First in the Field, Gault of the Patricias by Jeffery Williams, page 72.)

Offline THeTA0123

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #10 on: 03-09-2012, 21:09:59 »
aaaaaaaaaaaaaand i read a spoiler...fuck
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Offline Thorondor123

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #11 on: 03-09-2012, 21:09:03 »
Rickon an Osha are on Skagos. Davos is sent to retrieve them.

Varys... I did not see that one coming. But I think I like the fact that he is Aegon VI's man.

Coldhands might be Benjen, yes. The three-eyed crow in most likely Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers, the grandson of Aegon IV.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaand i read a spoiler...fuck

Good job you noob. Go ahead, read this post too :P
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Offline THeTA0123

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #12 on: 03-09-2012, 21:09:50 »
Nice try  ;D 


finishing book 2 in 54 pages :)
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Offline Lightning

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [HUGE GoT SPOILERS!]
« Reply #13 on: 03-09-2012, 22:09:45 »
Surely Bran would have recognised Coldhands if he was Benjen Stark?

Offline hOMEr_jAy

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [HUGE GoT SPOILERS!]
« Reply #14 on: 03-09-2012, 22:09:58 »
Read a cool theory about Jon Snow being the long-sought Azor Ahai.
If you re-read the last Jon chapter in Dance, you´ll notice that there are some small things that are an important part of the whole Azor-Ahai prophecy:
A bleeding star (that knight who got killed by the giant has stars on his doublet and is bleeding), salt (Bowen Marshs salty tears) and smoke (Jons smoking wound). Now Jon only needs to be reborn, somehow.
Maybe some fans are just developing crazy schemes, but I kinda feel that Martin didn´t hide those things in the chapter by accident.
Also, I´ve discovered a cool blog where a guy is re-reading Dance and analyses the book, chapter by chapter.
I´ve finished my re-read of the series and the blog was a great help to get more into Dance and uncover the things I didn´t noticed when I first read it, like Dany miscarrying, the Jon=Azor Ahai theory etc.

And so he spoke, and so he spoke, that lord of Castamere,
But now the rains weep o'er his hall, with no one there to hear.
Yes now the rains weep o'er his hall,
and not a soul to hear.