Author Topic: "Ban" limited kits in Armored Vehicles  (Read 5048 times)

Offline djinn

  • Masterspammer
  • ****
  • Posts: 5.723
    • View Profile
Re: "Ban" limited kits in Armored Vehicles
« Reply #15 on: 13-01-2012, 08:01:55 »
I think its more about rewarding people who use the correct kit.

For now, tanker kit has no advantage over engineer kit. At least with NCO you get a pistol. With tanker, nada.

Perhaps adding some advantage of these kits and putting them close to the tank will help them get used more often.

Say, possibility of slow internal repairs maybe? The engine already supports that. Same for medic kit. Slow internal vehicle healing maybe? I mean, with pilot kit, you can at least bail a plane, so with tanker kit, I think, internal repairs is your best bet.

But preventing machine gunners, sniper, pilot and bazooka kits from entering tanks and planes? If they can be blocked as opposed to sanctioned, I totally agree. Will make players smarter with kit selection and live their roles more, but not sure if it is possible.

I mean, it will be interesting to see a zooker play hide and seek with an enemy tank when his own tank is parked there, but both he and the enemy tanker know he cant enter it.

Offline hitm4k3r

  • Developer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1.123
    • View Profile
Re: "Ban" limited kits in Armored Vehicles
« Reply #16 on: 13-01-2012, 14:01:51 »
The problem is not so severe that the whole balance is screwed because guys drive tanks with AT kits. As I said, it happens in both teams, so the "problem" (which I dont even see as a problem) cancels itself out.

There are maps where this screws up the balance totaly. Best examples are maps like Eppeldorf or Meuse River. Same goes for maps like Ramelle or Goodwood. A guy with a Faust kit waiting for a tank in the mainbase can totaly screw up balance while his kit is needed in the Cagny and gets steam rolled. It's my experience so far. I don't want a restrictive system like in PR, where I can't pick up an enemy kit or where I can't sprint without the NIKE kit. But to block tanks and airplanes for limited kits is something that works very good in games like RO. The players don't have to read a whole manual and get instant feedback ingame. I don't know how much work it is, but this would save a lot of trouble and make the experience for all players more enjoyable and the maps would work like intended by the maper.

Offline Kradovech

  • FH-Betatester
  • ***
  • Posts: 447
    • View Profile
Re: "Ban" limited kits in Armored Vehicles
« Reply #17 on: 13-01-2012, 15:01:12 »
The problem is not so severe that the whole balance is screwed because guys drive tanks with AT kits. As I said, it happens in both teams, so the "problem" (which I dont even see as a problem) cancels itself out.
The problem is not balabce, Its people getting annoyed, because they are getting raped by a tank constantly. Granted on both teams.

Offline Mud Buddha

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 844
    • View Profile
Re: "Ban" limited kits in Armored Vehicles
« Reply #18 on: 13-01-2012, 16:01:09 »
Although I like the idea myself, although somehow I'm perfectly happy with FH2 as it is. Like a previous poster said, this is about annoyance, not the game itself. Stuff like this only gets apparent when gameplay itself sucks. On the maps where AT kits are rare you notice more quickly if a team has balanced teamplay going on or not.

Personally I'd like to see squadleaders banned from flying planes because it stalls teamplay and nullifies the added value of an SL (people can't spawn on him, he can't spot, too busy to give any orders, and why you wanna fly anyway when you're a squadleader?).

Also, and this is out of mild occasional frustration, maybe even make the SL kit mandatory for SL's. On a few occassions, when I was in arty for instance, I tried to get anyone to spot because the team was getting nowhere, only to find out that no one had a scout or NCO kit with binocs, and there were like 5 or 6 squads operational on my team.
FH2 is the game, DarklyDreamingDexter is the name.

Offline LuckyOne

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2.662
  • Jack of all trades, master of none
    • View Profile
Re: "Ban" limited kits in Armored Vehicles
« Reply #19 on: 13-01-2012, 21:01:50 »
Personally I'd like to see squadleaders banned from flying planes because it stalls teamplay and nullifies the added value of an SL (people can't spawn on him, he can't spot, too busy to give any orders, and why you wanna fly anyway when you're a squadleader?).

While I do agree it's generally not good for the gameplay it can also be beneficial for gameplay IF the SL leads a squad of pilots that can coordinate their air strikes (or in the future a bomber squad allowing communication between the pilot and the MG gunners).
This sentence is intentionally left unfinished...

Offline Natty

  • Developer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3.170
    • View Profile
Re: "Ban" limited kits in Armored Vehicles
« Reply #20 on: 13-01-2012, 21:01:38 »
I think its more about rewarding people who use the correct kit.
There is no "correct" kit. You can drive with a sniper rifle or even mortar kit. It makes no difference as far as the game mode and the scoring is concerned, or the mechanics. Tanker kit is IMO a failed design, I rather just tank as engineer.

If the tanker kit actually did something, then it'd be different

Offline ajappat

  • "Cheater"
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2.599
    • View Profile
Re: "Ban" limited kits in Armored Vehicles
« Reply #21 on: 13-01-2012, 21:01:06 »
Ofcourse there is correct kit  >:(.

Driving with sniper rifle sure make no difference to idiot doing it, but it does take that sniper rifle from someone else. This stuff goes to same folder with people using vehicles as taxi to get to tank and so on. It's just considered bad behaviour.

Offline hitm4k3r

  • Developer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1.123
    • View Profile
Re: "Ban" limited kits in Armored Vehicles
« Reply #22 on: 14-01-2012, 19:01:26 »
Ofcourse there is correct kit  >:(.

Driving with sniper rifle sure make no difference to idiot doing it, but it does take that sniper rifle from someone else. This stuff goes to same folder with people using vehicles as taxi to get to tank and so on. It's just considered bad behaviour.

Exactly. Taxi driving is something that you can't change. Blocking vehicle use for limited or pickupkits is something, that could be changed. My questions is, why do you make all these beta tests and tweak the vehicle layouts and weapon layouts for all these maps over years, when you tell us in this thread that a guy tanking with an AT kit isn't destroying the balance? Why do you place sniper kits at all on the maps, when they don't get used because a tanker uses this kit? For me it is a contradiction.  :-\

Offline Natty

  • Developer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3.170
    • View Profile
Re: "Ban" limited kits in Armored Vehicles
« Reply #23 on: 14-01-2012, 21:01:01 »
because we safety net against idiocy  ;)

look, solid design is not about arbitrary rules and constraints. It's about making the game playable no matter what you do, as a player.

Sure, we can add a bunch of weird rules and laws everywhere (like PR does) but that's... cheap, in my personal opinion. I rather provide a mod where you cant disrupt the overall game, no matter what you do as singular player. That is what is hard about design, managing player behaviour

Offline djinn

  • Masterspammer
  • ****
  • Posts: 5.723
    • View Profile
Re: "Ban" limited kits in Armored Vehicles
« Reply #24 on: 15-01-2012, 00:01:16 »
Like i said, dont punish or restrict... Give a carrot, not a stick.

People use pilot kits because with planes now able to engine-die in midair, you want the chance of bailing. So people DO take that kit.

People dont use medics or tanker kits because there isnt enough incentive to do so. I'd rather use an engineer kit than a tanker kit because I can bail and repair the same, I can also deal with ranged infantry, and even take out an enemy tank when I need to bail my tank.

So those kits become redundant. Put them next to a tank wont guarrantee they get used significantly more. However, give them a special ability i.e. internal repairs for instance, or something unique with their binocs maybe, or faster repair or something, and people WILL use it.

you may pick up a limited kit like an SMG, and realize the tank has spawned. you are getting raped by a panther, so you decide to use your spanking new firefly to kill the Panther. Imagine you died if you tried, or you cant enter the tank... That's no fun.

But put a tanker kit next to the tank spawn point and give the tanker kit something special, like slow internal repairs, and you will get the best of both worlds. Freedom, and more use of correct kits...

And yes, there ARE correct kits. This isnt BF Heroes, kits arent just fun variations. They are specific to a task, and there arises correct and wrong, depending on the tactical situation.

Offline LuckyOne

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2.662
  • Jack of all trades, master of none
    • View Profile
Re: "Ban" limited kits in Armored Vehicles
« Reply #25 on: 15-01-2012, 01:01:15 »
However, give them a special ability i.e. internal repairs for instance, or something unique with their binocs maybe, or faster repair or something, and people WILL use it.

How about the ability to use binocs in a tank without having to change seat with a tanker kit. Could it be possible to do?
This sentence is intentionally left unfinished...

Offline THeTA0123

  • The north remembers
  • Masterspammer
  • ****
  • Posts: 16.840
    • View Profile
Re: "Ban" limited kits in Armored Vehicles
« Reply #26 on: 15-01-2012, 01:01:00 »
internal repairs? THIS aint BATTLEFIELD 3 SON!

-i am fairly sure that if they took porn off the internet, there would only be one website left and it would be called bring back the porn "Perry cox, Scrubs.

Offline Musti

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1.734
    • View Profile
Re: "Ban" limited kits in Armored Vehicles
« Reply #27 on: 15-01-2012, 01:01:02 »
I though tanker kit had both a wrench and binocs? Or am I wrong?
If it only has wrench then indeed its useless.
WARNING!
Assholes are closer than they appear!

Offline Kradovech

  • FH-Betatester
  • ***
  • Posts: 447
    • View Profile
Re: "Ban" limited kits in Armored Vehicles
« Reply #28 on: 15-01-2012, 09:01:42 »
I though tanker kit had both a wrench and binocs? Or am I wrong?
If it only has wrench then indeed its useless.
I´m not much of a tanker, but aren´t the binoculars completely useless? I mean, does anyone even use them, while they are tanking? If I have to choose between binoculars and a rifle, the rifle wins hands down.

Offline djinn

  • Masterspammer
  • ****
  • Posts: 5.723
    • View Profile
Re: "Ban" limited kits in Armored Vehicles
« Reply #29 on: 15-01-2012, 10:01:58 »
internal repairs? THIS aint BATTLEFIELD 3 SON!

Actually, this is BF2 [engine] and that is possible. As far as how much of repair, that is up to the devs to balance. It can be really slow repair that wont affect a direct tank battle (But will slightly in a realistic way) and will only matter after the confrontation where the burning tank can slowly recoup itself without needing to scream over and over for an engineer.

but yer, Binocs are somewhat useless for most tankers.
It does become useful if you decide not to reveal your tank and crawl to the edge and spot the enemy for your arty or assess the situation before making your move. Enemy tanks looking right at you can completely miss you if you are prone as opposed to sticking your turret out to use your magnified tank view.
« Last Edit: 15-01-2012, 10:01:25 by djinn »