Author Topic: FH2 Teamwork theory  (Read 13488 times)

Offline Ts4EVER

  • Banner of THeTA0123
  • Developer
  • ******
  • Posts: 7.766
    • View Profile
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #150 on: 06-08-2011, 00:08:27 »
Actually the MG42 fires 900rpm as of 2.4.

Offline Archimonday

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1.197
  • Sir vis pacem, para bellum!
    • View Profile
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #151 on: 06-08-2011, 00:08:38 »
Math Fixed :P
« Last Edit: 06-08-2011, 00:08:58 by Archimonday »

Offline Natty

  • Developer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3.170
    • View Profile
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #152 on: 06-08-2011, 01:08:02 »
combat in FH2 doesnt happen so you "realize you are outnumbered" and decide to "get help"... you shoot and try to kill some guys, if you fail, you spawn in 15sec.

besides, if you need all that text to prove your point, it's likely to be a very weak feature / bad design.

In one sentence; how would increased suppression blur make players teamplay (aka stick together) more?

Offline Archimonday

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1.197
  • Sir vis pacem, para bellum!
    • View Profile
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #153 on: 06-08-2011, 02:08:42 »
combat in FH2 doesnt happen so you "realize you are outnumbered" and decide to "get help"... you shoot and try to kill some guys, if you fail, you spawn in 15sec.

If this summarizes your design philosophy for FH2. Then I am speechless.

And one sentence?

Suppression increases team-play by giving players reason enough to work together to achieve fire superiority on the battlefield.

Last note:

Nobody is talking about increasing it, but making it universal to all weapons.
« Last Edit: 06-08-2011, 02:08:45 by Archimonday »

Offline djinn

  • Masterspammer
  • ****
  • Posts: 5.723
    • View Profile
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #154 on: 06-08-2011, 03:08:07 »
combat in FH2 doesnt happen so you "realize you are outnumbered" and decide to "get help"... you shoot and try to kill some guys, if you fail, you spawn in 15sec.

besides, if you need all that text to prove your point, it's likely to be a very weak feature / bad design.

In one sentence; how would increased suppression blur make players teamplay (aka stick together) more?

I give up

Offline LHeureux

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1.350
    • View Profile
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #155 on: 06-08-2011, 03:08:13 »
The problem with you Natty is that you don't understand teamplay, you think that, like you, EVERYBODY cares about their K/D ratio. You think that what the MG gunner wants is all the kills, ALWAYS. But supressing the enemy to allow your friends to move in and get the kills is really awesome too.

Now I understand why you don't want this implemented, because if for exemple you are shooting an enemy squad with your MG, you will just suppress them, you won't get any kills, but your friends will, if they manage to flank the enemy squad, thus making you "useless" because you don't go up in the scoreboard. In FH2 there's no other way for getting points than killing or doing basic teamplay like repairs and spotting, while for exemple in PR you get points for sticking together or stuff like this. So now I see why you think that it's useless because the random guy supressing won't get a higher place on the scoreboard.

But what you need to understand is that YOU can be the rifleman flanking the enemy while your MG suppress them, then you get the kills in a much more enjoyable state of power. As well as you can be the random guy on the .50 of the halftrack firing across the river on Meuse on an epic charge, supressing the enemies while your friends cap the flags.

Have you never randomly shot at some enemies, even behind cover, just for the sake of coolness? I did and I do, but the problem is that THERE I'm really useless because they can just pop-out and kill me, cause there's no factors avoiding it such as suppression..(blur)
Hey, huge ass .gif signatures are totally unnecessary and obnoxious. Not these anymore, thankyouverymany kkbyethx love you, all the homo. -Flippy

Offline SiCaRiO

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1.554
    • View Profile
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #156 on: 06-08-2011, 03:08:06 »

That.... is simply not the reality of this game, or our maps designs... If someone hoses me with blur in FH2 I just run and away from there and pop up behind another rock/wall somewhere else, and shoots the MG guy. Or I just take my chances and pop up where I am and shoot him, I get a new guy in 15seconds anyway, and he will be unsuppressed and know exactly where that MG guy is.
and when you fail at pointing at him repetatly you will stop and start taking cover untill you have a better chance/ find some one unsupressed to fire at the mg ;).

map desing has nothing to do with it.

edit:


In PR, people role-play the fear. Something which works well when everyone does it. And is a mod where players role-play the team play as well. I still believe most people just ignore that, and play as normally.

and you have the expierence and how many hours of playing PR  to fundament that claim, right?  ;)
« Last Edit: 06-08-2011, 03:08:56 by SiCaRiO »

Offline Beaufort

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 405
  • WIP
    • View Profile
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #157 on: 06-08-2011, 07:08:06 »
Suppression increases team-play by giving players reason enough to work together to achieve fire superiority on the battlefield.

Last note:

Nobody is talking about increasing it, but making it universal to all weapons.

If all weapons have it, there will be more ... And fire superiority can be achieved without it. I repeat I've never seen "an smg gunner winning against 3 or 4 riflemen at any distances" nor eliminated "a whole squad with my garand or G43 with 3 greasegun shooting at me".

Offline Natty

  • Developer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3.170
    • View Profile
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #158 on: 06-08-2011, 09:08:11 »
Suppression increases team-play by giving players reason enough to work together to achieve fire superiority on the battlefield.
"fire superiority"? what is that? Sounds like an arbitrary term you just throw out. it's not needed in this mod. You can cap the flags and kill enemies without any "superiority"... more blurry screens will not change this, only making it less enjoyable and more ugly.
You have a theory here - "Suppression increases team-play" - but Im yet to hear one concrete example on how this would be achieved. Actual game-result please. Not just loose military terms that you see fit the discussion.
I only care about this, because I first all of want to see if there is substantial material behind all these suggestions, and also because more teamplay in FH2 wouldnt hurt.

@LHeureux: I dont know what level of matureness you want to hold this theory discussion at. If you think I care about kills, or want things in a certain way because how I play in the mod Im developing, then we have nothing more to say. Im looking at how players actually play, and how I can change things to make them play more like I want to.

I can give you an example btw: I had a round of Vossenack where I was in a Panther. I played exactly as I like the mod to be played, I was careful, took it easy, and provided cover for my infantry teammates as they rushed the flags. My Panther was positioned right between the two back allied flags, so I could keep an eye on both the "frontline" (where allies vehicles come from their mainbase) and also both flags. Now this was classical teamplay, I even had a guy repairing me when I got damaged.
Suppression, had no effect here at all. No one of my enemies there would give a rats ass if their screen would be blurry - dying doesnt matter in this game - they would happily sacrifice a bunch of "tickets" to kill me there. What made it possible for me to hold out so long there was tactical play by me and my teammates. When I was hosing the control points with the MG while the tank was reloading, destroying the vision for the guys in that CP would have turned that experience from something cool and stressful, in to something ugly and annoying. - it isn't needed.
K/D ratio has nothing to do with this discussion, we're talking about the design of this one feature and how/if it can increase teamplay with the limited means we have, modding battlefield 2.

To add: what we are actually talking about here, is player motivation. My point is that trying to "force" teamplay by destroying the looks of the game without actually changing mechanics, is not motivating enough. Players don't have a clear choice they can take to not get suppressed.
As I said earlier: if staying near your squad, would make you less suppressed, perhaps that would motivate me to do that. Like in L4D, you are motivated to stay near your friends, because not doing so will mostly result in you getting dragged away by a Smoker (as I know very well...)

If in Fh2, the furhter away from the squad you die, the longer spawn time you get. or the closer to the squad you are, the more chance you get of being able to spawn with a (limited) kit. Or if you get points for suppressing enemies (+1 points per second of every suppressed enemy, i.e. when the shader is activated due to your firing) or if you get flag capture assist points for suppressing 100m away with an MG. Or if you could disable SL spawn by suppressing him, or if getting killed while under suppression would give you longer spawntime, or if while under suppression, it took longer time for the sight to "close" (get your aim)...

I can go on.... these are all more or less motivating features that a player could look on the screen and see actual effect of his behaviour. Lying in an MG and shoot at a farm, without any feedback if anyone is actually getting suppressed, is kind of crap, isnt it? In Brothers in Arms, they added a "clock" above enemy heads, telling you how long they were suppressed for. They added this feedback because if you didn't know that, it would be unrewarding to suppress, and more fun to just "run for it".
If you leave your squad in FH2 and go "soloing" and you die, and your spawntime would suddenly be 45seconds, but when you die near your squad, you get 15seconds, that would be a clear choice for the player (a bit like leaving the group in L4D) with a clear effect. Anyone would be able to look at the screen and rethink his playstyle, especially if the HUD told you "+30seconds penalty for leaving the group"
 (when I was trapped by the Smoker so many times in L4D, I always looked at my guy in 3P and thought "damn it, next time Im not going away alone" and I did stop that after playing the game more)

If we can't give proper motivation and real feedback, it's pointless - moddy - to just add blur and hope players will care.
- No feedback for guy suppressing that his enemies are suppressed (just shoot and "hope")
- No feedback for teammates of suppressing firing guy, that his enemies are suppressed (just charge and "hope")
- No clear choice how to not get suppressed (like being near your squad would make you less suppressed for ex)
- No actual mechanic changed while being suppressed (only "smoke and mirrors")

Something positive: I believe that with proper feedback and reward, we would actually see more people using suppressive fire, even without a real suppression mechanic, just lying in the grass and shoot for example a Bren gun down at the AT positions in Lebisey, if you got a feedback icon of suppressed enemies, and also points for doing so.. heey... I would do that!
Players arent more complicated than that. It would be like a little mini-game for him (keep enough bullets in the air to make the clock not reach zero. plus you get points for doing so!) and at the same time be of help for your friends :) VoIP could be used to communicate when the suppression was about to run out.

The Brothers in Arms suppression feedback
« Last Edit: 06-08-2011, 10:08:09 by Natty »

Offline djinn

  • Masterspammer
  • ****
  • Posts: 5.723
    • View Profile
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #159 on: 06-08-2011, 11:08:25 »
Relying on VOIP for coordination is like praying for it to be so.

Offline dutch

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 300
  • FHT - F|H Tournament Founder
    • View Profile
    • www.forgottenhonor.com
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #160 on: 06-08-2011, 11:08:35 »
Lol @Natty for telling me that I roleplay every night when I play PR, I did not know that, so next time I am supressed by a saw gunner I will just stand up and shoot him in the face.

Endless discussion and you will get 0 results. Devs in any mod are not known for listening what veteran players want, they have a view and stick to it, even if it means lesser players for their mod, the doctrine is everything. They look purely on how many people play today, not if they lost 10 players that where playing the mod for 4-5 years and why. Look at BG, they let their mod die cause of doctrine and so many others.

"Vive la mort, vive la guerre, vive le sacre mercenaire."

www.forgottenhonor.com

Offline LuckyOne

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2.714
  • Purple Heart Collector
    • View Profile
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #161 on: 06-08-2011, 11:08:30 »

I can give you an example btw: I had a round of Vossenack where I was in a Panther. I played exactly as I like the mod to be played, I was careful, took it easy, and provided cover for my infantry teammates as they rushed the flags. My Panther was positioned right between the two back allied flags, so I could keep an eye on both the "frontline" (where allies vehicles come from their mainbase) and also both flags. Now this was classical teamplay, I even had a guy repairing me when I got damaged.

Wait I though MGs on tanks have suppression.

Suppression, had no effect here at all. No one of my enemies there would give a rats ass if their screen would be blurry - dying doesnt matter in this game - they would happily sacrifice a bunch of "tickets" to kill me there. What made it possible for me to hold out so long there was tactical play by me and my teammates. When I was hosing the control points with the MG while the tank was reloading, destroying the vision for the guys in that CP would have turned that experience from something cool and stressful, in to something ugly and annoying. - it isn't needed.

Like you said dying doesn't matter, but if you disable the player from shooting back accurately (via blur or simulated "blinking", head shaking, whatever) it becomes pointless to try and kill the guy suppressing you directly, as it will only get you killed... most of the times... you're better off calling your teammates to try and kill him.

To add: what we are actually talking about here, is player motivation. My point is that trying to "force" teamplay by destroying the looks of the game without actually changing mechanics, is not motivating enough.

We're not trying to "force" anything here... We're just trying to make it so that staying in a group gives you more chances of survival and teamwork to happen. (it does even now, but if you knew you could do something as a squad of riflemen, besides just capping flags faster this would be an improvement). And I don't think simple blur or "blinking" or "head shaking" destroys the looks of the game", I believe it adds to the immersion because if you were in a war you would probably not be perfectly calm under fire.

Players don't have a clear choice they can take to not get suppressed.
As I said earlier: if staying near your squad, would make you less suppressed, perhaps that would motivate me to do that. Like in L4D, you are motivated to stay near your friends, because not doing so will mostly result in you getting dragged away by a Smoker (as I know very well...)

I don't think people had a clear choice in the war either... But they can try to get a smokescreen out so they can fall back or throw some grenades in the hope of killing guys suppressing them. Or they can call for backup and get some counter-suppression.

If in Fh2, the furhter away from the squad you die, the longer spawn time you get. or the closer to the squad you are, the more chance you get of being able to spawn with a (limited) kit. Or if you get points for suppressing enemies (+1 points per second of every suppressed enemy, i.e. when the shader is activated due to your firing) or if you get flag capture assist points for suppressing 100m away with an MG. Or if you could disable SL spawn by suppressing him, or if getting killed while under suppression would give you longer spawntime, or if while under suppression, it took longer time for the sight to "close" (get your aim)...

Here you are, thinking about points again... But you are forgetting that not all people play for the points... They play to experience teamwork and to experience the tension of "being part of something bigger" and sense of accomplishment (this has nothing to do with points, for example if I just took out a tank which was preventing my teammates from crossing a street or capping a flag, or posed a general threat I would still get a sense of accomplishment, even if I didn't get points for it... Although you have some nice ideas there but these have nothing to do with suppression/and/or are impossible on this engine).


If you leave your squad in FH2 and go "soloing" and you die, and your spawntime would suddenly be 45seconds, but when you die near your squad, you get 15seconds, that would be a clear choice for the player (a bit like leaving the group in L4D) with a clear effect. Anyone would be able to look at the screen and rethink his playstyle, especially if the HUD told you "+30seconds penalty for leaving the group"
 (when I was trapped by the Smoker so many times in L4D, I always looked at my guy in 3P and thought "damn it, next time Im not going away alone" and I did stop that after playing the game more)

If we can't give proper motivation and real feedback, it's pointless - moddy - to just add blur and hope players will care.
- No feedback for guy suppressing that his enemies are suppressed (just shoot and "hope")
- No feedback for teammates of suppressing firing guy, that his enemies are suppressed (just charge and "hope")
- No clear choice how to not get suppressed (like being near your squad would make you less suppressed for ex)
- No actual mechanic changed while being suppressed (only "smoke and mirrors")

You get feedback... You see a guy taking cover, and while you keep firing at him he will be suppressed, simple as that... You stop firing, he's not suppressed anymore and he'll pop out and kill you.


Something positive: I believe that with proper feedback and reward, we would actually see more people using suppressive fire, even without a real suppression mechanic, just lying in the grass and shoot for example a Bren gun down at the AT positions in Lebisey, if you got a feedback icon of suppressed enemies, and also points for doing so.. heey... I would do that!
Players arent more complicated than that. It would be like a little mini-game for him (keep enough bullets in the air to make the clock not reach zero. plus you get points for doing so!) and at the same time be of help for your friends :) VoIP could be used to communicate when the suppression was about to run out.

I believe that with the ability to suppress enemies with every weapon we would actually see more people using suppressive fire, because right now if you fire at someone and miss you're probably dead. There's no point in shooting enemies behind cover as you risk getting killed if you miss. Instead you need to wait patiently when he will pop out to "snipe" him. I liked the suppression clock in BiA but I think it's to "gamey" to be in FH2.
« Last Edit: 06-08-2011, 11:08:37 by LuckyOne »
This sentence is intentionally left unfinished...

Offline ViperAnton

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 17
    • View Profile
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #162 on: 06-08-2011, 12:08:11 »
- instead of blur, make screen a little bit shaky
- or get a short black blur in the middle of the screen, like your eyes close reflexively
- or if it works, the supressed guy could not aim the weapon

So if we talk about teamplay, then lets get finnaly rid of the point for killing someone, we have already no crosshair.
And for the artillery strikes, where are the artillery batteries we already had in fh1?

And rather than discuss it, let us try and we'll see how it plays in public.

Offline Natty

  • Developer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3.170
    • View Profile
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #163 on: 06-08-2011, 12:08:54 »
@dutch: I dont have any doctrines :) I would change my mind in a heartbeat if there was an actual mechanic that would affect the player. Like the suppression in BF3. My only doctrine is to make things for real, not half-ass some tweaks to simulate something and "pretend" the rest. Ive played PR, and I dont feel suppressed by MG fire, I feel annoyed, I can physically feel the devs looking down from the sky and trying to tell me to act scared, when in fact, Im not.
- You make a good point about PR, there you can't just pop up and shoot the SAW gunner, because PR weapons take longer time to aim with, something we could discuss instead. I believe this is a real mechanic that works, and FH2 could gain with a longer time as well. That way, you can't really pop up behind the wall and insta-gib the MG42 guy. (same result by using another mechanic)

I would love a working, real suppression. I wanted this in FH1, in FHT and in FH2. Proper area-denial MGs and MG nests that actually works, it would make designing maps and playing the mod more fun, and feel more like WW2. Now, MGs are almost like "ambience" on the Battlefield.

Camera shake is actually doable, but I think also that will just annoy people, and you can easily learn how to "look through it" just like you can look through ugly blurr.
« Last Edit: 06-08-2011, 12:08:13 by Natty »

Offline Eat Uranium

  • Tea Drinker
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4.514
  • Today's news will contain [REDACTED]
    • View Profile
    • FH2 Music
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #164 on: 06-08-2011, 12:08:53 »
In my opinion, the suppression shader (while it still worked for me) was a rather effective way of informing me that someone knew where I was and was desperately trying to pop a cap in me.

I can still remember an incident in the church tower on Brest where I stood next to the window, and it was the blurry screen more than any other thing (bullet impact decals and sounds) that told me standing in front of the window would be detrimental to my health.  It was also really really cool - enough that I can remember it after nearly a year.

So in my view, the suppression shader is the visual feedback to bullets landing near you.  How you choose to act upon this feedback is up to you.

Also, the whole thing about the disposability of life with 15s spawntimes.  I also like to think that the further you are from a spawnpoint (or in a difficult to get to area or with a rare pickupkit), the longer your effective spawntime becomes if you want to return there.  This in turn leads to less bravado in the way you move about.  So where I'm going with this is this: if you are attacking somewhere, you are going to take cover much more if you have to spawn right back at the last flag; while if you have your SL up there too, you can spawn on him each time right into the action and can thus afford to be a little more gung-ho.