Author Topic: Upcoming M4A3 sherman=Armor  (Read 4189 times)

Offline THeTA0123

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Upcoming M4A3 sherman=Armor
« on: 14-05-2011, 11:05:30 »
Haters will probaly gonna hate, but im gonna give it a go

This is for the upcoming M4A3 sherman in the Bulge theathre. WIch actually should also be in Normandy.

The sherman tank had frontally 51mm of armor wich was sloped at an angle of 55 Degrees. In theory this should have protected the sherman from certain ranges from the 75mm KWK40 of the PZIV and stug, but this rarely happend because
-The early shermans M4A1 had a casted hull wich had less performance then the inquired steel thickness
-The early Shermans M4 wich had welded hulls did not had single frontal armour plate, but 3 welded together wich gave places for alot of weakspots. The area's around vision ports and such where weak spots

This is however, something that was fixed in the M4A2-3 and 4 versions. So this means the Shermans M4A3 hull SHOULD protect it from the KWK40 L48 at ranges from 450meters. A penetration was sometimes possible however at 600 meters.

So what i suggest, is to allow the sherman to withstand 2 shots frontally of the PZIV and Stug its main gun.

This is also something, wich affects the British Sherman V
Go look it up properly, and you will find out i am right.

People say it is unfair that the Panther dies from a single shot from the sides? well i find this unfair and maybe we can get to an agreement here ;)
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Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: Upcoming M4A3 sherman=Armor
« Reply #1 on: 14-05-2011, 11:05:06 »
Yeah would make sense. If Kev comes online he might shed some light on this.

Offline Butcher

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Re: Upcoming M4A3 sherman=Armor
« Reply #2 on: 14-05-2011, 13:05:19 »
wasnt it intended to improve tank-combat anyway with the new patch?

- that sherman can get that feature, but to not totally screw the tank combat something else has to happen. stugs and pIVs already struggle against the already available shermans. the turret ring thing is just annoying and the sherman with the 76mm gun is totally invincible frontally if you dont have  a pzgr40.

- add in that the special ammo will get taken out for normal tanks (from what i have heard and i totally agree) and the PIV is totally useless. the normal ammo has to do better.

german tanks are already underperforming, give me a cromwell and i 1 shot every panther and now you want even better allied tanks?
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Offline IrishReloaded

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Re: Upcoming M4A3 sherman=Armor
« Reply #3 on: 14-05-2011, 13:05:04 »
worst problem is the track instant kill, the cupola instant kill and the top armour instant kill, if those are not fixed any new tank warfare idea is pointless.

Offline Kev4000

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Re: Upcoming M4A3 sherman=Armor
« Reply #4 on: 14-05-2011, 14:05:04 »
dude, way ahead of you,
http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/m4sherman.html#M4A3(75)W

same armour values as m4a1 (76).

Offline THeTA0123

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Re: Upcoming M4A3 sherman=Armor
« Reply #5 on: 14-05-2011, 15:05:45 »
Same armor value yes, but way diffrent process. In theory the Sherman could withstand the PZIV's 75mm at a range up to 400 meters. This was not in the first run with the M4A1 shermans both welded and casted for the above reason

But the Sherman M4A3 did not had those problems.

So    will the M4A3 be just plain 1s1k? Like the rest of the allied tanks?

And butcher. Please play the game properly before you start to say things like "PZIV is completly useless against the sherman". Im sorry but your post is just plain rubbish. No offense intented.
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Offline Butcher

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Re: Upcoming M4A3 sherman=Armor
« Reply #6 on: 14-05-2011, 16:05:12 »
And butcher. Please play the game properly before you start to say things like "PZIV is completly useless against the sherman". Im sorry but your post is just plain rubbish. No offense intented.

yeah, who doesnt agree is talking rubbish.

i said the turret ring cant be penetrated with regular ammo. thats the case.

and then try to finish a 76mm sherman without a pzgr 40 frontally. i want to see you doing that. in fact you are dead when you dont kill it with the first shot. i even had side shots not killing the thing.

thats what i meant with "pIVs struggle vs shermans"
« Last Edit: 14-05-2011, 16:05:05 by Butcher »
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Offline THeTA0123

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Re: Upcoming M4A3 sherman=Armor
« Reply #7 on: 14-05-2011, 16:05:25 »
And butcher. Please play the game properly before you start to say things like "PZIV is completly useless against the sherman". Im sorry but your post is just plain rubbish. No offense intented.

yeah, who doesnt agree is talking rubbish.

i said the turret ring cant be penetrated with regular ammo. thats the case.

and then try to finish a 76mm sherman without a pzgr 40 frontally. i want to see you doing that. in fact you are dead when you dont kill it with the first shot. i even had side shots not killing the thing.

thats what i meant with "pIVs struggle vs shermans"
Armor of the PZIV turret is 50mm. Its normal it is penetrated ;)

I personally dint knew this aswel in the past
So zhat is why your post is rubbish! Incomplete with bad information!

So then the Sherman 76mm is correct. Only that it is an M4A1 model.  ;D
« Last Edit: 14-05-2011, 16:05:00 by THeTA0123 »
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Offline Butcher

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Re: Upcoming M4A3 sherman=Armor
« Reply #8 on: 14-05-2011, 16:05:56 »
I personally dint knew this aswel in the past
So zhat is why your post is rubbish! Incomplete with bad information!

So then the Sherman 76mm is correct. Only that it is an M4A1 model.  ;D

no, we are talking about other things. i meant ingame the SHERMAN turret ring cant be penetrated with regular ammo of a P IV.
i wasnt talking about the P IV turret ring which was only 50 mm of course and penetrateable. i have no problems with that.
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Offline THeTA0123

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Re: Upcoming M4A3 sherman=Armor
« Reply #9 on: 14-05-2011, 17:05:32 »
aah you said SHERMAN ring

i thought you ment PZIV turret

But anyway, it doesnt matter.  This is about the Sherman M4A3  ;)

(but i do not disagree on your opinion)
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Offline Neighbor Kid

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Re: Upcoming M4A3 sherman=Armor
« Reply #10 on: 14-05-2011, 17:05:02 »
didnt the M4A3 come about a little after normandy? I know the A3's started replacing other shermans. But wernt the M4 and the A1 still heavily used in Normandy?
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Offline THeTA0123

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Re: Upcoming M4A3 sherman=Armor
« Reply #11 on: 14-05-2011, 18:05:06 »
didnt the M4A3 come about a little after normandy? I know the A3's started replacing other shermans. But wernt the M4 and the A1 still heavily used in Normandy?
IIRC about 60% where A1's

Edit=Now i read here that the A3 was infact the most numorous in normandy... hmm
« Last Edit: 14-05-2011, 18:05:59 by THeTA0123 »
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Offline Ajs47951

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Re: Upcoming M4A3 sherman=Armor
« Reply #12 on: 14-05-2011, 20:05:34 »
German tanks are already underperforming, if you ask me ;)

but if that tanks was in there then it should be added


Offline Thorondor123

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Re: Upcoming M4A3 sherman=Armor
« Reply #13 on: 14-05-2011, 20:05:47 »
--if you ask me ;)

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Offline Kev4000

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Re: Upcoming M4A3 sherman=Armor
« Reply #14 on: 14-05-2011, 20:05:03 »
didnt the M4A3 come about a little after normandy? I know the A3's started replacing other shermans. But wernt the M4 and the A1 still heavily used in Normandy?

All the technical information on the sherman you'll ever need here
http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/m4sherman.html

M4A3 (75) W started production in Feb. 44, I'm not going to look up when they hit the frontlines, but it was definitely present in Bulge. M4A3 early models were in Normandy, though we do not represent this ingame as we'd rather focus on upcoming stuff, not old stuff.

There's a lot of misinformation on Shermans, armour thickness, and gun penetration. Some clarifications:
M4A1: Cast Hull, gasoline
M4A2: Welded Hull, diesel
M4A3: Welded hull, gasoline
M4A4: Welded elongated hull, multibank gasoline
In addition:
you've got several variations of each of the above, early, mid, late, and so on.
A mid M4A3 75mm has 51mm armour, while a late M4A3 75mm has 64mm armour at front, sloped at 47 degrees.

Our M4A3 is the late variant and thus will have 80mm of frontal armour ingame. As we upscale the armour values accounting for the slope of the armour. Could even argue it should be 90mm.

Also, more clarification on gun penetration:
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/usa/guns/75-mm.asp
Notice how those values are 70mm at 30 degrees. The panther has 80mm frontal, however the glacis plate is upscaled to 120mm ingame to account for the slope, which is 55 degrees from vertical. However if the sherman shot downwards at a panther from 55 degrees higher, the impact would be at 0 degrees, and at pointblank range a sherman could penetrate it.

Naturally, we cannot account for everything. Thus the sherman 75mm will in no circumstance be able to penetrate the Panther's frontal ingame.
However, the Sherman M4A3 in Bulge will be able to survive one, but not two, frontal shots from the Panzer IV.
You may discuss this here, bad, good, axis bias, allied bias, however it is unlikely to affect our decision on it.
Also I got a lot of work to do, so may not have time to type up long replies like this one.