Author Topic: Having FH2 really playing like WW2  (Read 7448 times)

Offline djinn

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Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
« Reply #60 on: 22-02-2011, 15:02:21 »
Exactly my point.

FH1 had the ability (HAS) to be a timeless classic because it has just so many levels - Practically all aspects of WWII is covered in it - And the game did push the envelope on realism compared to most games of its time.

FH2 doesn't. In as much as it is my favorite game, and I think the devs are doing an incredibly good job of it, it actually regresses to a simpler form - Especially with succesive releases. It may have had more ambitious plans in 2.0, but somewhere along the line it seeems to have settled for a more well-trod path.

I simply feel, it can be alot more radical in its gameplay while remaining true to FH ideas - Fun with a shallow/ low learning curve but with enough to make relatively hardcore WWII fans satisfied - AND more importantly, a gameplay that actually has people experiencing WWII more like itself - Doesn't require forced constraints - Does require a change in the underlying philosophy though regarding how to employ current and future game mechanics - Like I said, the very idea of a capture-point, just one example.

Offline Lightning

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Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
« Reply #61 on: 22-02-2011, 16:02:51 »
I totally agree. Where are the new feature?! Features like player-controlled artillery, limited classes, multiple weapons per class, deployable weapons, different spawn points per team, maps with weather, flamethrowers, mobile anti-tank guns, mobile player-controlled artillery, bleeding, static guns that don't respawn but which you need to repair, weapons that share ammo count!? Where are they?!

Oh and FH1 was so realistic. It had boats!

Offline Vicious

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Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
« Reply #62 on: 22-02-2011, 16:02:51 »
Djinn I've been right there with you on many things but your going too far on this suggestion. Learn to map and put that passion to work. Ideas are always paramount to work, but work is required. Go work.
So they are so infallible yet they can't even communicate and work with each other... sounds like politicians.

Offline LuckyOne

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Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
« Reply #63 on: 22-02-2011, 16:02:58 »
I totally agree. Where are the new feature?! Features like player-controlled artillery, limited classes, multiple weapons per class, deployable weapons, different spawn points per team, maps with weather, flamethrowers, mobile anti-tank guns, mobile player-controlled artillery, bleeding, static guns that don't respawn but which you need to repair, weapons that share ammo count!? Where are they?!

Oh and FH1 was so realistic. It had boats!

Now you're just overreacting... I didn't say there aren't any new features I just said they could be improved further and the effect of some of those features you mentioned on gameplay is minimal... Also half of those already existed in FH1 (player-controlled artillery, multiple weapons per class, deployable weapons,  different spawn points per team, maps with weather, flamethrowers, mobile anti-tank guns, mobile player-controlled artillery)...  I really think devs should consider adding some new ones, or at least considering new ones... Almost all suggestions I have read recently got a "that's a no-no" or "I don't see anything interesting in that" from the devs.
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Offline Lightning

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Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
« Reply #64 on: 22-02-2011, 16:02:23 »
That's because we have 1 effective coder and he has about 100 vehicles and weapons still to export, of which he did 2 in the past month.

Offline LuckyOne

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Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
« Reply #65 on: 22-02-2011, 17:02:20 »
That's because we have 1 effective coder and he has about 100 vehicles and weapons still to export, of which he did 2 in the past month.

Oh, that's too bad. Well then let's hope the team gets bigger in the future!

I'm still new and have lots to learn (so therefore I can wait to see how the mod will shape up in the future ;)) Maybe I'll even join the team some day if I find the time - and patience to learn all the stuff needed to work on this great mod.
« Last Edit: 22-02-2011, 17:02:32 by LuckyOne »
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Offline SchwererGustav

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Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
« Reply #66 on: 23-02-2011, 00:02:07 »
How about longer spawn times so you can have REAL waves and no SL spawn this would make the game much more interresting im my opinion.

Offline djinn

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Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
« Reply #67 on: 23-02-2011, 01:02:05 »
I for one do not support longer spawn time or non-SL spawning. Although I can understand where you are coming from, Natty is usually right about alot of things regarding gameplay - Although I almost never agree with his final conclusion. Like myself, he must have great knowledge in game theory. One part of this is, feedback needs to be proportional to the action that caused it.

It goes as low down as sound feedback or screen flashes etc, but it also gets to more complicated things like spawn-time in relation to a death. Spawn time in Battlefield series has never imo, been about sanctioning the player, but depicting spawn waves.

Personally, I'd even reduce it 5 or 10 seconds. When a player stops and needs to watch the number counting down, you know you're doing something wrong, imo.


SL spawn is used to depict realistic squad size. It has been estimated that by the team a good squad leader is dead, he will have spawned about a realistic sized squad per combat situation - Don't forget, in low-combat action and during fighting breaks, there would be replacements, which are also accounted for in spawn rate. Coupled with a good spawn-time, this works quite fine. It's like crosshairs - It may seem unrealistic - But it actually represents an even more realistic aspect of warfare than were it not in...



Some of my own thoughts to improve gameplay (Said in brief so as not to get the thread focused on each per se but rather to inspire thought),
1/ Realistic tank motion, damage and handling to make any reasonable tank life based on coordination eg. BGF tank motion, Arrow key turret control, multiple-speeds on tanks and other vehicles, improved damage system.

2/ Suppression effect - Not more blur, but inclusion of camera-shake to throw off the suppressee's aim more and more under suppression, so it becomes a feasible tactic to fix the enemy and flank him.

3/ Deviation over range using 'breath' from mg-aim margins - Most of the silliest kills imo, are distant shots from players with the lowest ping from great ranges on account of pixel-perfect-aim. This idea wont affect average range combat, but will make such shots partly based on lack rather than simply principles. Using margins also gives a clear reason for the deviation rather than random deviation. You will notice players moving in the open more and in large force, and sniping will become 'special' and a notable threat to a force who identifies it instantly.

4/ A robust commo-rose and voice overs - Its a biggie, but with a commo-rose that affords alot of actions in a clean design, perhaps with hand motion for some actions like suppress, flank, hold etc, you get not just immersion, but a system that makes simple communication by most players (as on average 1 man in 2 squads on HSLAN uses VOIP), possible using the default comm. aparatus

5/ Voice over/ radio over dichotomy - A special radio man pickup kit with a radius that allows SL in that radius having radio over whether or not the kit-user is dead. All other infantry chatter is voice over. Radio overs can also be heard only by people who can in turn use radios i.e the SL with radio, commander, vehicle users etc... Even hull gunners etc would still use voice over and scouts will only use radio in calling spots.

6/Commander assets - Commanders having various forms of arty, smoke, flare etc which they can call in so that playing commander in FH2 is like playing World in conflict.

7/ Rougher (not slower) traverse for all turrets and turn-able vehicles above hand-held weapons - When an 88, AA gun, AT gun, tank turret moves, it pushes on a bit by itself unless the user compensates by simply tapping, slowing its turn or moving the opposite way to make them more mechanical and hence making AT fire less pixel-shot.

8/Adoption of mummble, to make sure Voice, and specifically, proximity voice is imgame, making players constrained to the rules of real world commincation

9/ Removal of text-communication altogether - This requires the other 2 forms of communication are robust enough.

10/Documented gameplay strategy guide (My department) - A succinct guide with diagrams (perhaps also as video) that gives each side unique playing strategies that they can use depending on the situation. Neccesity being the mother of invention, players would see the proven reason why moving in force is better than moving solo in smaller groups.

In fact, this already exists, except people make it up as they go, so its employed haphazardly, but ever noted how a team moves in force desperately when they are under 10frags, and bulldoze everything in their way, but only too late. We just need people to know it works - and design side-specific versions: Blitz-Krieg for Germans, Red army human waves, bayonet charges for Japanese, slit trench defense for Brits, etc - its not about just saying 'oh you can do this or that', its about the logical use of it eg. A bayonet charge is stupid cannonfodder without men firing in the rear, or a large enough charging force versus a small enemy. Even without having read this, you will see most people employing it and would find your place by observation

11/ More practical use for under-developed game mechanics - Supply drops or crates will work best where there are none and supplies can ACTUALLY run out without them, voice-versus-radio overs as said, commander's having a bigger role as said, a more robust damage system esp. for vehicles, more dynamic or robust flag-cap system to expand the compexity of maps based on simply a more solid cap system i.e not just about capping that 20m flag radius - So that theaters feel different, even though they employ the same essential game design..

12/ A more complex flag cap - Now this is a big one. With flag caps being large areas of the map, and them being 2 types i.e small zones where a flag is lost immediately a single enemy is in its zone, and major zones, where it takes all defenders being removed to cap - So you get a more persistent axis of advance, besides the effect of Push.

A side would then have the time to defend major cap areas and send small parties to cap the small ones eg. small one = a house, a street, a town square, a church, while the major ones may be areas behind the town, a village some way off etc - Cap areas will NEVER be an entire town - That will consist of several cap areas.

The map will break up the cap areas in colour blocks of red, blue and white adjecent patches depending on who owns it, and many wouldnt need flags either on the map or in the game world - Flag areas would be key strategic areas that cause bleed, irrespective of how many flags the enemy has. you can then have bleed on both sides depending on what flag is held (Most would just have one of a few flags).

The effect will be that, sides would have that major objective, rather than equal merit flag zones, and may be disadvantaged depending on which flag is lost...The system is easily implementable on current maps i.e not easy to setup, but wouldn't require a new type of map.


These are just my 2-cents...


I figured I HAD to say it eventually before I said no more of it, so I have. A key eye may realize that many of these overlap in one way or the other: Besides an AT gun having harder traversal, it can be suppressed (camera shake) by simple mg fire of the tank to cause it to fire a tad off target unless it already had the target in sight and the target was moving straight at it...

The combined effect, among other unmentioned suggestions and others anyone else can come up with, are geared towards a more WWII gameplay (Not realism) - Each playing a part on the whole, rather than just being individual GOOD IDEAS.
« Last Edit: 23-02-2011, 01:02:50 by djinn »

Offline [ret]azreal

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Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
« Reply #68 on: 23-02-2011, 02:02:53 »
I'm not sure I completely understand #5.

And as for #1. Unfortunately BGF tank acceleration has one big bug. The acceleration works great, but when you accelerate for a small bit, turn for 5 seconds, and then try to accelerate forward again, the tank lurches forward, mimicking FH2's current acceleration.

Offline :| Hi

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Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
« Reply #69 on: 23-02-2011, 05:02:21 »
Can we just lock this thread and pretend all is right with the world?

[2:06:54 PM] Tolga: cant use tha shit underwater -Tolga on the G3

Offline djinn

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Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
« Reply #70 on: 23-02-2011, 07:02:09 »
@Azreal
Number 5 means, there will be a pickup kit (Generally a bit more than sniper kits, but not too many, say about 3 or 4 at the main bases) which can be taken by anyone. What it does is to cast a radius within which a squad leader or commander using his commo-rose will enjoy radio-overs rather than his default voice-overs. Even if the wearer of the kit is killed, until it disappears, the SL in that area will still enjoy radio-over until it does.

But it means the SL needs to be in range of it. The radius may be about the average size a 6-man squad covers or a bit less.

The radioman himself has no special ability he can use. He's just another rifleman. With a smaller commo-rose, even as exists now, only SL and commander will have the commo-rose options that are radiod-over, so no one else in the squad will benefit from the radioman either....


Radio-overs will also be only used by the following classes:
Tank commander/driver, SL and commander in radio range, commander with commander assets, pilots, other vehicles except GPs.

Auxilliary roles like hull mg gunners in tanks etc will NOT have radio overs, but voice overs like everyone else, and scouts will only have the sole privilege (SL will not have this, being able to call out spots only with a radio man in range) of being able to call out spots without the need for a radioman, but they cannot communicate via radio otherwise.

I would personally have scouts being limited kits, making their role even more vital.


Also, my suggestion regarding BGF tank motion has always been to try to tweak it to make it even better. Besides a small bug that makes tanks move as odd as they do now is better than them being like that all day. I also once said, and a BGF dev agreed with me, this code could also work to make planes handle more realistically with stall etc... It does need to be tweaked for them though.

@:| Hi
my suggestion, avert your eyes and it will dissapear to you forever ;-)

« Last Edit: 23-02-2011, 07:02:42 by djinn »

Offline Lightning

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Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
« Reply #71 on: 23-02-2011, 08:02:25 »
Djinn, we have, in general, discussed these ideas (about two months ago) and, of the ones we think are good (roughly 1, 3 and 6), we will be working on. At the moment though, we only have enough coders to do one of these things (well, maybe more like half of one thing), so we are currently only working on 1.

Offline djinn

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Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
« Reply #72 on: 23-02-2011, 08:02:35 »
I'm glad the devs are are aware. That is all I wanted with this.

thank you :-)

Offline LuckyOne

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Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
« Reply #73 on: 23-02-2011, 15:02:40 »
Djinn, we have, in general, discussed these ideas (about two months ago) and, of the ones we think are good (roughly 1, 3 and 6), we will be working on. At the moment though, we only have enough coders to do one of these things (well, maybe more like half of one thing), so we are currently only working on 1.

I like what I see...
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Offline AlexS66

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Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
« Reply #74 on: 23-02-2011, 17:02:59 »
I like what you're suggesting Djinn.

Second.

it sounds reasonable enough