Author Topic: Commander Assets - Air and arty  (Read 895 times)

Offline djinn

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Commander Assets - Air and arty
« on: 07-01-2011, 09:01:18 »
So i know i made some of these comments in the Bomber thread, but I want the idea to stick, and since it was just one post, here we are

Now, I understand the regular arguments of needing a coder for this, the priority of the devs and all that, but let's try to look at this purely at concept level, shall we... And objectively, if it wont be too much to ask

So I'm thinking there's something more the commander can do than sitting on a sorry wooden chair all day and waiting for a knife in the back, or a close explosion to upset his day - And for assets most don't even appreciate

So here they are - the new and improved commander asset system:

Artillery
Depends on the battle and what artillery bore on it. Arty ranges from distant mortar fire (This needs to feel as realistic as on field mortar), off-map rocket artillery, core artillery (with a proper distant boom followed by the shell hits), naval artillery with guns that rotate and actually fire using the VBF2 arty system eg. on PDH or future pacific maps with static ships. each arty fires according to a scaled version of their real WW2 representation. The key aspects is radius of influence and concentation. So core arty WON'T fire like it does now, not as precise, anyhow

In the Bulge and late maps, you can also get proximity charged arty, where the explosion goes off as puffs of smoke some way up in the air and decimates people not in their holes

Bombing runs
Now this I also discussed already. Essentially you get everything, although I understand that heavy bombers would be scarce if they even featured on a strategic scale. I know on the Western front, there were battles that were proceeded by heavy bombing (or was it medium bombing?), there will also be medium bombers, divebombing (Which is more the plane than the fact that the planes are diving), and close air support in thre form of fighter-bombers or rocket-planes AKA tank busters.

Again, each has their radius of influence and concentation of bombing, not to mention prefered target type. A rocket plane attack has planes flying as they do now, with the explosions timed to go off with streaks like we have for current commander arty, but from a sharper angle to make it more rockety. The bombers and fighter-bombers have the Ramelle type effect, but the explosion is preceeded by a bomb-drop sound effect.

In the pacific, you also get napalm runs

Each arty also have their specific targets. A rocket attack, even a close miss is more likely to flip a tank than a 250 pound bomb, but a medium bomber and a 1000 pounder or 500 pdr would flip ANYTHING, but with such scatter, its less tactical and hence less likely to do so.

There can also be strafing runs, which is more of cannon-type explosive effects mixed with mg-type explosive effects across an area followed a fast flying plane that streaks overhead, so we don't need the planes to dip.

As always, planes CAN be shot down and their effect lost - Now that's where the real coding skill is required, to not just make the explosion in tandem with the plane, but also based on the plane's existence.


Commander directing
Commanders can also direct air strikes from player-controlled planes. All this is, is an 'attack here' order specific to pilots, say, a line to the target with a pulsing barrage ring and a plane at the end of it to tell fighter-bombers of dive-bombers where the party's at, or a a plane with streaks coming from its image to signify a high troop concentration requiring a good strafe etc... Pilots can ignore these ofcourse, or see it as them being given a gift from the big man - same goes for commander call for on-map artillery. But I will recommend the ring on the minimap idea to allow arty to fire at map coordinates, or at least a call for arty by a commander at a position given the arty gunner a new spot.

For consistency the images shown on the map for arty wil be identical to those for off-map arty, except in a different colour, same for bombing runs or strafing runs, be it auto or manned calls.

So feedback?



« Last Edit: 07-01-2011, 09:01:55 by djinn »

Offline donjuan

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Re: Commander Assets - Air and arty
« Reply #1 on: 07-01-2011, 10:01:42 »
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Now, I understand the regular arguments of needing a coder for this
It is not a regular argument but the most important one.

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And objectively, if it wont be too much to ask
I´ll try, even if I am just a newbie with 2 weeks of FH experience.

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So I'm thinking there's something more the commander can do than sitting on a sorry wooden chair all day

I agree on that!


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Artillery
Depends on the battle and what artillery bore on it.
It should be like that, of course!
 
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distant mortar fire, off-map rocket artillery, core artillery (with a proper distant boom followed by the shell hits)
Yeah, sounds logic, but asking for "proper distant boom" is too much nitpicking.

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naval artillery with guns that rotate and actually fire using the VBF2 arty system eg
That´s very interesting and would be really cool, and possible code-wise!

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Each arty fires according to a scaled version of their real WW2 representation.
As long as it is possible and compatible with a given map, it´s ok, but this shouldn´t be a priority.

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In the Bulge and late maps, you can also get proximity charged arty, where the explosion goes off as puffs of smoke some way up in the air and decimates people not in their holes
I agree on that.

Bombing runs
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Essentially you get everything, there will also be medium bombers, divebombing, and close air support in thre form of fighter-bombers or rocket-planes.
Ok, but no heavy bombers, they wouldn´t make sense and would take a lot of time to make.

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Again, each has their radius of influence and concentation of bombing,
Of course.

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not to mention prefered target type.

That is impossible.

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A rocket plane attack has planes flying as they do now, with the explosions timed to go off with streaks like we have for current commander arty, but from a sharper angle to make it more rockety. The bombers and fighter-bombers have the Ramelle type effect, but the explosion is preceeded by a bomb-drop sound effect.
Is that even possible? If it´s, it would be a nice way.

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In the pacific, you also get napalm runs
There will be no pacific.

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As always, planes CAN be shot down and their effect lost - Now that's where the real coding skill is required, to not just make the explosion in tandem with the plane, but also based on the plane's existence.
No, just no, this would be a pain in the ass to make and isn´t really that important.
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Commander directing
Commanders can also direct air strikes from player-controlled planes. All this is, is an 'attack here' order specific to pilots, say, a line to the target with a pulsing barrage ring and a plane at the end of it to tell fighter-bombers of dive-bombers where the party's at, or a a plane with streaks coming from its image to signify a high troop concentration requiring a good strafe etc... Pilots can ignore these ofcourse, or see it as them being given a gift from the big man -

This is the best idea here and should have it´s own topic.
I can only agree with it!

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Same goes for commander call for on-map artillery. But I will recommend the ring on the minimap idea to allow arty to fire at map coordinates, or at least a call for arty by a commander at a position given the arty gunner a new spot.
Current in-map artillery system works well and shouldn´t be altered.

In conclussion, as you may know beforehand, we can all agree with most of your ideas.
But as you may know too, many of them aren´t possible codewise OR not worth the effort.

Still, I´d like people here to discuss about the commander ordering pilots to attack certain locations...





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Offline djinn

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Re: Commander Assets - Air and arty
« Reply #2 on: 07-01-2011, 12:01:36 »
The distant boom sound is ALREADY in. Before a commnader arty barrage, you hear these low thumbs. Just that, that sound has been there since 2.0 and has not been changed, just as the incoming shells basically use the sound from vanilla - So if that can be changed (the sound), to represent the type of gun firing the off-map arty, and then that would be good

for bombs and arty having specific target types, well, its simply about having varying types of arty damage, some being more damaging to armor and less damaging to infantry, etc

The timing of rocket arty with the planes is simply a combination of the Ramelle plane effect and current offmap arty. Instead of having just the explosions like in Ramelle timed with the planes, you get the current off-map arty effect of a whizz shell then the explosion at the point. I only ask for a sharper angle streak to make it more believable that it was a rocket coming from the plane - although its simply timed to go off when the plane is in rocket-range

Offline DLFReporter

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Re: Commander Assets - Air and arty
« Reply #3 on: 07-01-2011, 12:01:50 »
Djinn, perhaps you can persuade Devilman to join the devteam. That would take a load of the coder dev's hands. :)
Gravity is a habit that is hard to shake off

Offline djinn

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Re: Commander Assets - Air and arty
« Reply #4 on: 07-01-2011, 12:01:01 »
lol - I tend to see the glass half full, Devilman sees the glass half empty. And this affects our rapport tbh. I doubt I'm the right person for that job.

But I'm sure the dev team can coax him to join. From what I'm seeing, the Fh2 devs could definitely do with more skilled people, especially coders.. And Devilman is probably one of the best if I saw one. but my charm doesn't work on him, I'm afraid

Offline donjuan

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Re: Commander Assets - Air and arty
« Reply #5 on: 07-01-2011, 12:01:39 »
About distant sounds... you´re right, it was my fault.
About specific targets, well, you are right too...

And about Devilmal, oh come on... why do you guys think he joined these forums and showed examples of his work?

Offline General_Henry

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Re: Commander Assets - Air and arty
« Reply #6 on: 07-01-2011, 15:01:33 »
I hope some FH2 devs do invite him to do some work, then accept him into the team. Some people are too shy to apply for a position I am afraid.

Offline HappyFunBall

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Re: Commander Assets - Air and arty
« Reply #7 on: 07-01-2011, 18:01:59 »
Well you are absolutely right when you say heavy bombers weren't used that often. As far as I recall, they were only used twice: In Totalize and in Cobra. In both cases the heavy bombers weren't 'called in' for a strike. The air strikes were planned weeks in advance. They hit targets the night before, and the ground attacks were then launched at dawn.  In this respect the air strikes can be represented in game by including bomb craters in the landscape.

It should be pointed out that the after reports of the allies found that, aside from the moral boost it gave their troops the night before the attack, (hearing those big bombers go overhead and seeing those awesome blasts must have been quite a site), the air strikes did no appreciable damage to the enemy. For this reason, and because of heavy resistance from Bomber Command to be used in this role, the exercise was not repeated.

In any event, heavy bombers were too big and slow, and took to long to prep for flight to be called in on a tactical air strike. By 1943 however, the British had become quite adept at calling in tactical air strikes on targets.  RAF liaisons were attached at the Battalion level, in this way they were often able to bring an air strike down within 1/2 an hour of the request. I don't really know very much about the US Army Air Corps, but it seems likely that they were doing this as well by Normandy. (The Americans were generally very practical about their war making, and quickly adapted to what worked best.) The Germans had mastered this before the war began.

I hate poring cold water on a request, but as I see it, the player controlled aircraft in game are a pretty good representation of air power on the battlefield in WWII.

Offline djinn

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Re: Commander Assets - Air and arty
« Reply #8 on: 07-01-2011, 18:01:24 »
For fighter/fighter-bombers maybe, but not for medium bombers. In some battles, arty, mortar and aircraft would have been used in close air support, but that's it - That goes beyond the role the player has them as. So the runs will work in such instances

Offline [ret]azreal

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Re: Commander Assets - Air and arty
« Reply #9 on: 07-01-2011, 19:01:01 »
I hope some FH2 devs do invite him to do some work, then accept him into the team. Some people are too shy to apply for a position I am afraid.

A quick side-note, we invite no one to our team. They must willingly apply themselves.