Author Topic: ESAI: FH2 Edition  (Read 27082 times)

Offline Zoologic

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Re: ESAI (Enhanced Strategic AI) by Void BFSP
« Reply #15 on: 31-10-2010, 06:10:46 »
Hi Void, glad to see you here.

ESAI has been a very great help to all of us here. This thread's first page http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=6539.0 are all updates and modifications you need for SP.

Mareth Line is currently like this:



How they play:

There are only two bridges connecting the "ridge" between the British and German positions of Toujane and Mareth (connected by the yellow lines).

The neutral flags of Matmata and Command bunker, is meant to give equal start for both team, so no one is bleeding from the start. Yet the Germans, although slow, will eventually capture both, causing the British to bleed tickets. While the British are unable to push through the first two posts.

Only Mareth will see numerous change hands during the battle, Toujane is relatively stable, it rarely switch sides from one's hand.

Junkers Ju-87B2 Stuka dive-bombers really shows their power here. The British Supermarine Spitfire Mk.Vb fighters are not of any assistance at all. Only 2 or 3 Stukas were shot down in aerial combat during the full 700 vs 700 ticket match.

Special conditions:

Germans and British got bombers and fighters.

Germans and British got tanks, with the British in far superior numbers and of better quality and firepower.
Germans got at least 2 tank destroyers (open top cannon-carrying tracked vehicles) which dies easily and a couple of light tanks (tougher, but somewhat effective cannon). The British got tons of armor, fast moving light tanks with upgraded gun (Crusader Mk.III), medium tank with big punch (Sherman II). Both will receive numerous means of transport (trucks, half-tracks, jeeps, etc).

The city of Toujane is full of wreckage, roadblocks, gates, fences, making bots difficult to navigate through.

The road to Command bunker and Matmata are naturally fortified by ridges and canyons, except venturing infantries-on-foot, vehicles have to drive through the circling road, making them perfect targets for bombers.

Matmata is also tricky to navigate, but they are of smaller scale.

In later stages, if the German are in disadvantage (bleed tickets), they will receive Tiger I tank in Matmata.

-end-

I could say navmesh and bot driving behavior could be the problem, as their attack are already paced using ESAI.

In real world, Mareth Line is General Erwin Rommel's last stand before retreating further to Tunis and get surrounded by US from the west and British from the east. So it should be quite overwhelming for the German defenders, while for the British, they should face a though challenge in overcoming the defensive positions.

I hope you would enjoy the map as all we do.
« Last Edit: 31-10-2010, 06:10:49 by ZooMotorpool »

Offline djinn

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Re: ESAI (Enhanced Strategic AI) by Void BFSP
« Reply #16 on: 31-10-2010, 08:10:23 »
Strategic considerations


Allies
Mareth is a 2-pronged attack on Mareth and Toujane for the allies to prevent showing their flank to enemy units firing from the other. The 2-pronge continues when either falls, with the ratio attacking the other retained, while the force that capped the flag, split between the 2 rear flags at either's rear. You'd note that Toujane is flanked  by Matmata and Rommel's bunker, while Mareth is flanked by Gabe and the Tebaga gap. A small fraction needs to hold the capped base however, only reuniting if the flank bases to its rear falls AND the other frontline base with it.

eg. the defending Brits at Toujane will only stop defending when Mareth also falls as well as Matmata and Rommel's bunker. Mareth will now be defended by this ratio with the 1/2 that took Mareth pushing on into its rear bases, and the other large ratio that capped the entire left flank moving to cap Gabe through the Tebaga gap. The reverse is also true if Mareth and Gabe fell completely.

Axis
The axis need to defend both Toujane and Mareth with equal forces while pulling armor from Matmata and Gabe to reinforce Toujane and Mareth respectively. However, Matmata is uncapped when the level starts, so the ratio that will bring tanks from there will need to move in to cap it first, as well as Rommel's bunker. The reinforcement for both Toujane and Mareth will be split between each of the 2 bases to its rear.
If either Toujane or Mareth falls, a counter-attack needs to be made, while the reinforcement ratio from its rear now dig into both rear bases. For Mareth, the 2 rear bases are Gabe and the Tebaga gap. Bots spawning at Gabe must spawn at both parts of it to exploit all vehicles across the town.

Capping Rommel's bunker is tricky since the only access to it is from Toujane. For this reason, the reinforcement size behind Toujane will be split into those moving from the Tebaga gap to cap Matmata and those moving from Toujane itself to cap Rommel's gap. Once done, that same ratio will then be coming off Matmata and the bunker to reinforce Toujane.
« Last Edit: 31-10-2010, 08:10:29 by djinn »

Offline djinn

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Re: ESAI (Enhanced Strategic AI) by Void BFSP
« Reply #17 on: 31-10-2010, 08:10:02 »
I'll see what I can do with Mareth Line, if someone cares to point out the improvements that it needs as well as the game play goals in terms of strategy.

I have not played much FH2, and am unfamiliar with the maps. I have tinkered around modding inside of older versions.

I'm currently doing a fresh install of 2.3. I've downloaded all the patches in the stickies here, but am confused. Is there a true FH2 SP minimod I need to download also?

I just want to be running the same mod version as you guys. Someone please clarify about that, and give me the rundown on Mareth Line.


This is what you need to install
/Fogotten Hope 2.3
/Remick's fixes for Lebisey, Villers Bocage, Olympus and Point en Bessin
http://www.filefront.com/17377677/FH2.3_SPfixups_01.rar/
/Devilman's minimod fix to Purple Heart Lane
http://www.filefront.com/17392854/fh2.rar/

Also note, Lebisey confuses files with Olympus, so you need to delete its GameplayObjects.con file from its Server.ZIp/Gamemodes/COOP or SP3 file and replace it with one from Server.ZIp/Gamemodes/CQ

Offline Void

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Re: ESAI (Enhanced Strategic AI) by Void BFSP
« Reply #18 on: 31-10-2010, 22:10:53 »
Wow, this map is a beast! This is a challenge,alright. I have to correct some severe SP issues before even worrying about the SAI code.

I've managed to get this map in the editor (more on that in a bit) and change the layout of some of the spawn points

I've fixed the Allied Airfield so that bots only spawn there if there is an airplane for them to fly. There is a human spawn down there as well. This alleviates the first issue of having a third of the allied invasion force wandering around the bottom of the map doing nothing useful.

The tanks at the British Motor Pool area are still a nightmare - the bots are just camping them after spawn for the most part. I propose to start with trying to add vehicle waypoints to get them moving, and if that doesn't work, spawn the British tanks closer to the main road in.

As soon as I can get those allied tanks moving, I'll be ready to start adapting ESAI and creating FH2 specific AI modules. Yeah, I'm planning a version of ESAI specifically for FH2. The FH2 version will live in \mods\fh2 instead of \mods\bf2.

Now to my Bf2 Editor problem: every time in the editor when the map is loaded up, it crashes whenever I click Render-->Ai-->Toggle Draw AI. I need to be able to see the navmesh if I am going to try adding waypoints for the Brit tanks.

I'm not using the included \Editor folder from the level. I made my own, and am using just the sp3-64 GPO and AI folder. For purposes of editing, I have everything moved to layer 1 (default).

Can someone link me to a tut on setting up the Editor for use with FH2? I've set it up the way I've done with every other mod I've tinkered with, but still get that crash on AI draw.

Offline kummitus

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Re: ESAI (Enhanced Strategic AI) by Void BFSP
« Reply #19 on: 31-10-2010, 22:10:37 »
http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=1804.0

there's that fenring tutorials link what has the old tutorials for this mod, gotta dl it and extract it somewhere and just open the index.html and use it as any other webpage
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Offline Void

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Re: ESAI (Enhanced Strategic AI) by Void BFSP
« Reply #20 on: 01-11-2010, 01:11:02 »
Update:

I've moved some vehicle spawns around slightly, and finished editing the bot spawn points. Now that the motor pool isn't quite as stuck, I've started cooking up the SAI code.

I already did a test run with "standard" ESAI enabled, and the allies managed to advance as far as Matmata and Lower Gabes. Matmata was captured and held; Lower Gabes never was captured despite being covered by 4 British tanks at one point.

The AI for this map will be implemented in "ESAI FH2 Edition", which I am currently creating. I'm going to go ahead and write an expanded code base that I can reuse, so it may take a little while to get a testing package ready for Mareth Line. I'm working on things with enthusiasm though.

@Djinn:

I will try my best to implement the strategic considerations you posted, within the limits of BF2 and SAI scripting. BF2 bots are wired to attack more than defend, and trying to partition resources with the precision you request simply may not work out. I may, in the name of British progress, code some unconventional attack strategies. I will try first with an initial two pronged assault on Mareth and Toujan, but have other ideas in mind if that strategy fails.

@everyone:

Don't expect miracles. This map was not made with SP in mind, and most flags are natural bot-traps: they can get in, but don't navigate so well getting out to the next CP.

Offline djinn

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Re: ESAI (Enhanced Strategic AI) by Void BFSP
« Reply #21 on: 01-11-2010, 02:11:26 »
Glad to hear. I actually tried that map today and they actually capped Gabes with one sherman. Help with the tiger and pzIV came from the air. It was matmata that we couldnt get to - Toujane

But tbh, this map is a helluva lot fun, bot-limitations n all.
LeFH18 even reaches rommel's bunker

Offline cannonfodder

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Re: ESAI (Enhanced Strategic AI) by Void BFSP
« Reply #22 on: 01-11-2010, 10:11:18 »
Ok, I tried ESAI with Siege of Tobruk using the large FCAPFPB strategy (SP with 49 bots@max difficulty).

Before I "installed" it, I tried SoT to see how it played, and boy was I surprised...not only was it raining shells, but the CO wasn't being a complete dickhead! Still, the Germans only managed to cap one flag all round and they only held it for a couple of minutes.


After adding ESAI to it, there initially didn't seem to be much difference... as before, the Aussies weren't having much trouble holding the line, so I assumed I chose the wrong strategy size or maybe it just didn't work well with this map... :-\

About halfway through the round, I jumped onto the German team. It looked no different on their side of the fence, it still appeared they were going to fail miserably. So I decided to quit before it was over, just as soon as I took this screenshot of a problem which has always plagued this map:

(Bots don't see the flag, so they park a tank against it and cause traffic jams... ::))

It was just then I noticed that one of the flags had been capped and another greyed out, and by the time I got down there they'd taken the remaining frontline flag. The two remaining flags fell fairly quickly and we held them there for the last few minutes of the round, although they did momentarily take one of them back.

Too bad the Germans bled so hard at the start, after that great comeback they still lost 143-0... :)


Conclusion: The bots don't fuck around anymore do they?... ;D



@Void: G'day mate.

Mareth Line, ay? Seems you've been thrown in the deep end, but then you did ask for it... :)

BTW, if you haven't got Remick's fixes yet, DL this (only need to extract - no editing needed):
...Lebisey - Port en Bessin - Mt Olympus - Op. Cobra - Op. Goodwood - Villers Bocage ---> http://www.mediafire.com/file/djfvypp7pzutmhw/2.3SP_fixed_files.rar

 - Includes all Remick's latest fixes.

 - Goodwood-16 added...



...Surprisingly, city fights, CQBs, are not that "bionic", bots do well in moving from cover to cover, clearing houses from human players, navigating along narrow paths, etc...
GW-16 and Brest are two of my favourite maps...there's never a dull moment... :)



Offline djinn

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Re: ESAI (Enhanced Strategic AI) by Void BFSP
« Reply #23 on: 01-11-2010, 12:11:41 »
Sometimes the issue with maps like FOT is that the bots play them like the battle would really have and this battle would prove real tough for Gerry on a 1:1 scale, worse if you play as Brit. Same goes for say, sfakia.

Little things matter, mg34 needs to get in range and deploy, bren is hipfired, AT gun is low profile, Germans start in the open.

German arty does help, but brit mortars are more deadly.

Issue I think, is Germans need to get a constant flow of tanks to the front. When that happens in some games, the difference is significant.

Map that shows this exact factor is sidi rezegh, where brits sweep into the axis, even if the player plays defender: mobile infantry, tank reinforcent. Thats it for NA maps. Attackers need to get there fast, and they need their tanks.

Offline Zoologic

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Re: ESAI (Enhanced Strategic AI) by Void BFSP
« Reply #24 on: 01-11-2010, 13:11:54 »
Funny twist mate,

My Siege of Tobruk went the other way, the Germans managed to cap all the way through to Tobruk Outskirts, with Aussie bots repeatedly recapturing 2nd line flags (Ft. Airente and Argub Bdawa).

Also, I tried to run Mareth several times, the British could never advance beyond the red lines i drawn. It is quite amazing if they could cap Matmata and reach lower Gabes, before being blown into pieces by Stuka.

Offline djinn

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Re: ESAI (Enhanced Strategic AI) by Void BFSP
« Reply #25 on: 01-11-2010, 14:11:38 »
Yup, they need more armored push to outnumber stuka dive-runs, and deal with mg positions for their infantry.

Again, its a tough map, sure. But its still a problem of statistics/ logistics.

Offline Zoologic

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Re: ESAI (Enhanced Strategic AI) by Void BFSP
« Reply #26 on: 01-11-2010, 16:11:48 »
In addition to that, the bots do have some poor navigational skills.

Is there any particular variables that registers the bot's collision avoidance behavior? The bots seems to not know if their panzers and halftracks would fit a certain gap or narrow pass.

Also, they don't to like cross passable collision meshes like fences and railways, or even passable ditches and trenches. We have to tweak some variables so the bots would go a bit more clumsier, and at least try to cross some obstacles, in order to reach their objectives.

Offline djinn

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Re: ESAI (Enhanced Strategic AI) by Void BFSP
« Reply #27 on: 01-11-2010, 19:11:11 »
Its more AI I think. In Goodwodd, you should see tanks reversing and moving foward, back and forth, back and forth, same navmeshes as 2.26

Personally, I would replace such map files with those from 2.26 for now to see if it makes a difference, but I'm certain that tanks reversing 10m and being overly cautious is AI, not navmeshing

Sure hope Drawde would be here, we could use a tweak-back in some areas so we get ESAI to shine through properly.

Offline Void

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Re: ESAI (Enhanced Strategic AI) by Void BFSP
« Reply #28 on: 01-11-2010, 22:11:06 »
Well, I've diven into Mareth Line and have done some coding. The situation at this point seems almost hopeless for the allies. I've been writing a custom ESAI plugin for the map, and using new strategies for the brits and standard ESAI strats for the germans.

I quite like the code I've written, except that it doesn't work yet. ESAI helps the Germans too for one thing. Typically both Toujane and Mareth are taken, then eventually the allies are driven out for the duration of the round.

The British infantry spawn is problematic because it interrupts the flow of tanks to the front. Can I make it for humans only, or is that cheating?

The bridges are a bot trap. Once the brits are on the other side, I need to keep them spawning on that side unless they are going to bring in armor.

Toujane is a bot trap for any vehicle. Ideally I would have infantry cap it and send all tanks to Mareth, but that is not possible within BF2.

I'd love to write bad AI for the Germans, but that would be cheating also.

You guys gave me a beast! I can, err, work on two maps at once, if someone wants to nominate a fun one.

Offline djinn

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Re: ESAI (Enhanced Strategic AI) by Void BFSP
« Reply #29 on: 01-11-2010, 23:11:57 »
Well, to stop tanks going into Toujane will be to remove secondary nav-meshes in that are i.e vehicles. But I think the town is pretty well navmeshed, its the entry near the 'hedgehogs' that causes traffic.

Tanks can access it coming off from Mareth or Matmata/Romelle's Bunker along the Northerly road. But it means initial attack on Toujane will be infantry-only, which should be fine

About the foward spawn, I think reducing this would mean, bots will spawn at the main base, and with modded nav, would have to beat Mareth to get access to Toujane. Only infantry trekking from  the main on foot will pass the bridges leading to Toujane.

I think you'd have to play around with ratio-spawning, but that foward spawn is too important logistically to lose.



For an alternative map, I would narrow it down, personal choice, to Luttich, Vilers Bocage and Totalize
totalize would be wonderful with more agressive defenses and attack, but sadly, it has an unexplaied CTD so work on it would be a waste till that is found out. Villers is an interesting one, and the Allies could use more tanks at the front, but strategy is blah, and the battle is over too quickly, so I will have to nominate Luttich

Now this one is a funny one. The problem it has is that bots fighting over 4-equal priority flags with no focus on a proper defense or attack strategy, it lacks house to house fighting as it has no building interiors navmeshed, and it boats of frankly, one of the most bocage-ey terrains of any maps... But bots NEVER use them as they out of their way

My suggestion is this:
Remove German and Allied foward spawns, but make them capture-able areas. After all, this was a German offensive.

We need to change flags around a bit. Instead of the one foward German spawn have 3 capture-able spawns:
/The fields north of Abbaye Blanche
/The curve in the road between Abbaye Blanche and West Mortain
/The field overlooking mortain i.e Equi-distance between Mortain and the Germans
/The Tank graveyard above the farm



Yes, bots CAN move easily through all these areas. We also make the fronline Allied spawn (Now a flag), also capture-able.


What happens is this,
Germans start to attack the field and tank graveyard first, with some effort at the road. Once the road is capped, they cap the fields overlooking Abbaye Blanche - A head-on assault

From the road and the fields, they turn into East and West Mortain. Once they cap the Tank graveyard, they split into capping the farm as well as east Mortain.

East Mortain, and the road there IS the main push. The rest is battling in the bocage


After MOrtain and its environs are secure, the Germans will dig in, with a small group, say a 3rd of the army splitting into 3 to capture the fields behind Mortain and the 2 roads leading into it.




For the yanks, they need to cap those blank flags i.e the fields above Abbaye Blanche, the curve in the road, the fields above Mortain and the Tank graveyard in order to peck at the Germans, however this is for about half the army.

Allies will ONLY spawn at the main base when vehicles are available (The fields behind Mortain and capture only, not spawn points).

They will move to defend the Town of Mortain, Abbaye Blanche and the farm, making the Axis only face tanks once they move on to Mortain, since the allied Tanks  will remain at Mortain and its environs, the axis can expect mostly infantry resistance unless they delay in moving on to mortain etc, by which time the allied tanks, like everyone else will be activated to assault flags infront of Mortain and environs (free flags on the German side of the town).



The idea is to move the battle away from Mortain and its environs alone with no real focus on a single important flag, to fighting to keep the enemy from even getting to those areas, in the bocage country, with more battles taking place across hedgerows and in fields than in the constricted town.

Town fighting will occur, if Gerry pushes that far, but it wil be brief, with more focus on moving on to the fields on either side, from where they can harrass the enemy on either side



Any better recommendations from anyone, do feel free to express, but this is my thinking. The exact inverse of Mareth Line: Nothing in the open, excellent under-used Navmeshes rather than over-used challenging paths.


« Last Edit: 02-11-2010, 00:11:25 by djinn »