Author Topic: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry  (Read 14569 times)

Offline FatJoe

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #120 on: 03-01-2011, 15:01:59 »
I like the idea of removing the hit indicator and I wouldn't mind trying it out. But kill message stays for sure. It's a part of where fun/arcadeism overweighs the realism part. It's part of the community, I want to see who I killed, I want to smile when I shoot Toddel, I want to apologize when I shoot Flippy ( unless he's in an arty, then I laugh ) and I want to laugh when my team mate takes out 5 people in a truck with 1 grenade, you know the moment.. where people go "wow" & "haha" when the kill message screen gets filled instantly with 5 kills made by the same person.


But, I really wouldn't cry if the hit indication would be removed, so we'll just see :)

Offline Beaufort

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #121 on: 03-01-2011, 15:01:55 »
Not even as an option server side ?

Offline Atkins

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #122 on: 03-01-2011, 15:01:01 »
I think these 2 matters should be divided in to 2 separate topics.

a) death/kill messages
b) hit-indicator / the hit-cross thingy


a-option will probably never be removed totally from a game that has had them for 3 years. Ppl are just too used to it to comprehend a game without them. On the other hand, server owners could run their servers without it sometimes, just to spice up the game.

Btw the redundant "You killed this and that" message could be removed imo, as u can see ur kill already from the other wall of text, right? In RO they just use one "kill list" for everyone where your kills are written with white color to distinguish them from others.
Imo less duplicate stuff in the screen the better.


b-option is, like ajappat said, a weird feature that other fps games mostly don't have and they seem to work just fine. Tbh, if you can't tell whether your shot hit or not without an overlay flashy thingy to indicate this, then there is something missing from the game itself. Hitting someone should either produce a puff, sound/voice effect or/and blood splatter that indicates if you hit or not.

Offline GuinNess

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #123 on: 03-01-2011, 15:01:29 »

Maybe it would be more "fun" for your target ... Maybe it would make tank fights last longer ... I don't know if you know it, but über long hits with regular weapons or vehicles aren't popular at all (let alone realistic).


I don't think this would make tank fights last longer because most tankers know their weapon and how to use it.

Offline FatJoe

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #124 on: 03-01-2011, 15:01:57 »
Not even as an option server side ?

I would personally much more prefer a Immersive Mode server side option and I do think I brought up the subject of somehow tying it to the "infantry only" option for servers, but I don't remember the outcome of that discussion if there ever was one and I simply don't know if this is possible at all. I might bring the subject up again to our coders and get an answer on it.


Hitting someone should either produce a puff, sound/voice effect or/and blood splatter that indicates if you hit or not.

though I agree, the BF2 engine is special in this case that you can get the blood spatters effect when you shoot someone, without the character actually registering a hit.. wonderful wonderful engine :)
« Last Edit: 03-01-2011, 15:01:48 by FatJoe »

Offline ajappat

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #125 on: 03-01-2011, 15:01:09 »
Hitting someone should either produce a puff, sound/voice effect or/and blood splatter that indicates if you hit or not.
And with 1s1k FH2 rifles, dropping body is quite good indicator imo. If it doesn't kill, it doesn't really matter was it missed, wounding or not registered hit.


Maybe it would be more "fun" for your target ... Maybe it would make tank fights last longer ... I don't know if you know it, but über long hits with regular weapons or vehicles aren't popular at all (let alone realistic).
I don't think this would make tank fights last longer because most tankers know their weapon and how to use it.

I think. Have you ever tried?

Ofcourse most people still kill with one hit. After all, most tank fights are over after one shot. But in case of really long range (or hard ballistics of pz4 ausf.D) it for sure makes firefights last longer.

Offline Natty

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #126 on: 03-01-2011, 15:01:12 »
b-option is, like ajappat said, a weird feature that other fps games mostly don't have and they seem to work just fine. Tbh, if you can't tell whether your shot hit or not without an overlay flashy thingy to indicate this, then there is something missing from the game itself. Hitting someone should either produce a puff, sound/voice effect or/and blood splatter that indicates if you hit or not.

yes! there is :) this is BF2 and we can not notify you with anything else than the hit indicator.
We cant make a "puff" that is visible 400meters
We cant have a sound that is heard 400meters (you would hear every sound.. it would be an insane spam)
We cant make blood splatter that is visible 400meters and through bushes etc.
We cant make overexaggerated animations like in war movies

We can have, a flashy overlay.

BF2 has a rendering problem (FoV) where distances make everything very small... maybe you dont know it but....75m ingame looks like 150m IRL.... 150m makes a guy almost a pixel... where is the feedback of hit on this pixel?

And with 1s1k FH2 rifles, dropping body is quite good indicator imo. If it doesn't kill, it doesn't really matter was it missed, wounding or not registered hit.

Im sorry but did you just say that it doesn't matter if you hit someone or not, if he didn't die?...  ::)
« Last Edit: 03-01-2011, 15:01:51 by Natty »

Offline hOMEr_jAy

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #127 on: 03-01-2011, 15:01:36 »
"Sets up an MG"?  :) in FH2?.... You mean throw himself to the ground on the right spot, right?
As our maps are designed and as our combat pace flows, you don't really "set up an MG" (in public servers), you run around with the rest of the bunch, and throw yourself to the ground and spray with the MG when you see bogey's to shoot.
"Throwing yourself on the right spot" is what you can mostly call "setting up a machine gun", atleast a medium machine gun.
According to you logic Lafette MGs are useless and not needed in FH2 because all a machine gunner needs to do in FH2 is run and gun.
If you don't get hit/kill indicators, you won't know if there are enemy's there. And it was you who said that with the indicator, players just "stop shooting instead of keeping the enemy supressed", so I guess you want them to keep firing, even if there might not be any enemies there. (he won't know, since he gets no feedback if he hit or not, right?)
I actually HAVE a feedback that tells me IF there is an enemy in the position I´m assaulting: Once you see him (visual) or once you get shot at (audio/visual). If there is no enemy showing himself at the top of a trench then I don´t need to fire. But once I see him returning fire on my team mates I have the "go!" to make sure he keeps his head down.
My main concern is to remove all those "little articifical" helpers. A game becomes much more immersive when the screen isn´t clustered with game messages (yeah, I know that I captured a flag, because I see my teams flag flying up on that pole. No need to tell me I earned "x-amount" of points for that.). I don´t need to have a hit indicator. In a firefight I can´t always see that I´ve hit an enemy but I know from certain things I can observe that I could have killed him. For example when I see that he stopped fireing or when I can actually see him getting hit. These are all "real-life indicators" that work well in-game, too. And if I really do have a 500m firefight, having a feedback such as the hit indicator is plain ridicolous. All of the above "indicators" are more than enough.
If you make the game more "cleaner" and let the player concentrate on his surroundings, instead of clustering him with "hints" the game will feel more like "the real thing", you try to portray and each player tries to feel.

And this is the root of our little disagreement party here... FH2 is not PR, and never will be. It is also not a tournament, Because we don't want that Smiley As Ciuputa wrote... Players simply aren't keeping their heads down in this mod. If you have an MG set up, you're an easy target for rifle-men, not a threat. Now this is a whole other problem ofcourse, but removing the poor MG gunners hit/kill indicator would only render his already poor weapon totally useless. Undecided

And the day I see "Once friendlies are close enough they can attack with grenades etc. and the MG player can relocate or cover the flanks etc." on a public server, will be the day I change my name to   "omfg:-X IWasWrongAllTheTime Lips sealed".. you don't "relocate and cover flanks" in FH2... it simply doesn't happen in normal public play. when it does happen, it's a squad of dudes who are VoIP or TS:ing with eachother, and as we said before, they are probably communicating with eachother anyway ("They're down, go for the flag I cover you") and can just ignore the hit/kill feedback ... or?  Smiley
But why are you content then, that your average Pubby player can´t follow tactics? I just can´t understand why you´re happy that FH2 is basically a "BF Vanilla light", which has some "realistic" gameplay features, such as bleeding out, more realistic weapon handling etc., but at the same time when it comes to tactics you just shrug and say "I know, machine gunners are basically useless, but we are not PR, so why change anything?!". A good game doesn´t just create a "realistic" athmosphere with visuals (which FH2 does. Your graphics and effects are stunning!) but also from gameplay.
And I´m really feeling bad for saying this, but FH2s gameplay doesn´t really convince me. Especially "slaughterhouse" maps like Tunis are plain boring. Most of your bigger maps DO HAVE the potential to be good gameplay-wise, but turn into "frag-fests" none-the-less. IMO it´s mostly the speed of the whole mod. If I can rush from one flag to another in no-time it´s no wonder that there will never be an authentic WW2-feeling.
And if players don´t play in squads and behave competely "un WW2-like", why do you accept it just like that?
Like you said, there is a small bunch of VOIPers, who follow tactics and behave authentic and do what I have described, but what about the rest? Maybe you DEVs really need to take deceisive steps and enforce a certain tactical behaviour...

Edit: just read you havent played since prior 2.2... ok then,  Cool
and no one calls anyone pr fag here.. we like PR and the pace they have fit rights for that kind of warfare.. not for ww2. *piuh* Tongue
That´s not what I have said. I´ve downloaded and played the latest release. It seems, though that I have mixed some things up with PR, which I play a bit ATM, because I´m at home.
I still don´t understand why you beat the old "WW2 was different than modern combat"-horse dead, all the time. We only have max. 64 players on a server. There only is a certain scale you can represent on each map. Sure you can create 32 vs 32 tank duels, but especially the number of infantry combatants in FH2 will never represent the number of soldiers involved in a day-long battle stretching over quite a wide area.

/walloftext

EDIT: FatJoes idea of a server-side immersive effect sounds good. This way you can even see for yourself if you´re ideas or my lunatic suggestions are more accepted in the community

« Last Edit: 03-01-2011, 15:01:22 by [WaW]hOMEr_jAy »
And so he spoke, and so he spoke, that lord of Castamere,
But now the rains weep o'er his hall, with no one there to hear.
Yes now the rains weep o'er his hall,
and not a soul to hear.

Offline Beaufort

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #128 on: 03-01-2011, 15:01:05 »
Not even as an option server side ?

I would personally much more prefer a Immersive Mode server side option and I do think I brought up the subject of somehow tying it to the "infantry only" option for servers, but I don't remember the outcome of that discussion if there ever was one and I simply don't know if this is possible at all. I might bring the subject up again to our coders and get an answer on it.

That would be great, thank you :)

Offline ajappat

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #129 on: 03-01-2011, 15:01:57 »
And with 1s1k FH2 rifles, dropping body is quite good indicator imo. If it doesn't kill, it doesn't really matter was it missed, wounding or not registered hit.
Im sorry but did you just say that it doesn't matter if you hit someone or not, if he didn't die?...  ::)

Indeed. Atleast on longer range. On close range you can see the blood we already have ingame. On loger range enemy most likely takes cover if he notices he's being shot. And even if you hit him and he didn't die, you need to hit him again anyway to get kill.

So what do you do with information that you had a hit? Only thing I can come up with, is that you can pixel shoot at same point to get another hit, but that's exactly what I don't want.

Offline Alakazou

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #130 on: 03-01-2011, 15:01:27 »
I don't care if the hit indicator will be remove, but never remove the kill message. I love to see who I have kill :)

But, it would be a good idea to try.

Offline Natty

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #131 on: 03-01-2011, 16:01:45 »
So what do you do with information that you had a hit? Only thing I can come up with, is that you can pixel shoot at same point to get another hit, but that's exactly what I don't want.

pixelshooting with a rifle?  :) you confuse it with arty shelling..

what I do with the information? If I know I hit my enemy with some bullets, and he didn't hit me (and the firefight takes a paus, for example if he withdraws back in to the house from which window he just shot at me) I will go after him, knowing he is in a disadvantage when we encounter eachother again. Im the hunter and he is the prey :)
Throwing out a bandage and suck on it to restore health takes some time in FH2, I can lob a nade in the house, draw pistol or run in and spray like John McLane with my SMG.

And not only is it about what I do with the information if we part, if I fire with rifle and see a hit, and he doesn't die (I see no killmessage) I know I only need to hit him once more for a guaranteed kill. Rifles do not 1s1k all the time in FH2.. So hit indicator allows for a smoother combat flow when you have commited to a fight with an enemy.. these are the milliseconds of gameplay when you and this dude 175m away are having a "stand-off", if I dont even know he got hit, this commitment will feel pointless.

Just look at BC2 hardcore mode, they did it pretty great. No crosshair but you have hit/kill indicator. Often you're "folllowing" (or; leading) enemies as they run over a field and in to bushes, if you have the hit/kill indicator you can perform awesome "drops" where you take down an enemy as he enters in to cover...
Now... mapdesig.. how would you be able to go over and check if the enemy died or not? when he is laying 175meters away behind a bush? His teammates are there and they will kill you, or his corpse will have timed out and disappeared from the world. Why is this good for anything? What would you tell your teammates if you followed an enemy with MG fire in to a bush, if you dont know if you killed him or not" ("uuuuhh.. charge I think,.. I should have killed him.. I guess, I dunno, he disappeared behind the bush..why dont you go and look..")  ;D

@[WaW]hOMEr_jAy.. Im not content with fh2... you dont know.. but Im the least content guy there is  ;) we're working on things, trust me.. one of those things is listening to what players like and dont like, and discuss with them how to improve fh2. as in this thread. 8)
« Last Edit: 03-01-2011, 16:01:14 by Natty »

Offline ajappat

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #132 on: 03-01-2011, 17:01:19 »
Natty, have you actually tried playing without hit indicator?

Offline Flippy Warbear

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #133 on: 03-01-2011, 17:01:37 »
Arguing with Natty is totally pointless. It is like emptying a swimming pool with a fork. Except you might actually succeed emptying the pool.

Offline Alakazou

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #134 on: 03-01-2011, 18:01:58 »
It's so mean ;D